[Jon L]

Quote:

My favorite 6SN7 is the Sylvania short bottle chrome top from the 1950's.  

If your system clicks well with Sylvania GTA's, I think you will really like Sylvania metal base 6SN7W. Unfortunately, crazy people are asking for crazy prices, which crazy people are actually paying on eBay, etc.  
 
I presume you've tried the Sylvania VT231?

 

[tjkurita]

 
Quote:

[size=10pt]You may want to try some Sylvania's Bad Boys, if you didn't already, but also Tung Sols Mouse Ears are pretty good as a driver together with ECC33 Mullards [/size][size=10pt]http://www.natubes.com/data/images/product/large_570.gif[/size][size=10pt] Can your amp use ECC33 type? If yes, try these Mullards brown based. Also CV1988 Brimars are very good, but they come with differ inside construction, with short and long plates. The one I tried were short  [/size][size=10pt]http://www.natubes.com/data/images/product/large_772.gif[/size][size=10pt] and here is the one with long [/size][size=10pt]http://www.natubes.com/data/images/product/large_773.gif[/size][size=10pt], but ECC33 were better, at least in my rig. [/size]  
[size=10pt]Thing is, like I wrote, my main use are K1000 and that's something else than speakers, so, your experience may be way differ from my.[/size]
 
[size=10pt]Are these the one you like at most?  [/size][size=10pt]http://www.natubes.com/data/images/product/large_668.gif[/size]

What is the reference/designation of the "Bad Boys?"  Do you know when they were produced?  I would be really interested in hearing them as they seem to be a favorite of yours.  Are they the VT231s from the 40's?  I have one good pair of those (and a pair of GTs from the early 50's).  The Syls you linked to are exactly the ones I love.  Triangular plates with 5 notches.  I can't tell you how great those sound in my system.  They seem to have the exact qualities I am looking for.  Those are some interesting European variants you linked to.  I would really like to try some!  Maybe someday I will go tube shopping again...  My problem is that one or two in matched pairs have gone microphonic or died.  So I am sending the spent tubes and the matched tubes to the vendors I bought them from and having the ones that are still good matched with their old stock as closely as possible.  That way I can still use them in pairs.  My amp is dual mono so any differences in either channel are really noticeable.  Less so with speakers, but channel imbalances with headphones are SO glaring, right?  It can be a problem. 
 
In fact, my amp is back on my tech's bench to chase out some gremlins right now.  He came to my house to listen to the problem and then he took it with him.  I really hope he gets it.
 
Quote:

If your system clicks well with Sylvania GTA's, I think you will really like Sylvania metal base 6SN7W. Unfortunately, crazy people are asking for crazy prices, which crazy people are actually paying on eBay, etc.  
 
I presume you've tried the Sylvania VT231?

 
I've never heard the metal base 6SN7W.  Is that a 1940's tube?  I would certainly rather have a quiet tube than a microphonic one.  Maybe I'll try to find a couple.  I like Vintage Tube Services.  Maybe Andy will be able to sell me a couple of lightly used ones on the cheap.  I'm not as picky about my drivers as my 300Bs as far as used/NOS is concerned.  I have lots of pairs of good 6SN7s that I like.  But only a few pairs of Westerns.  The 300Bs need to last, you know? 
 
I have a pair of those VT231s from the 40's the tall ones with the "T" shaped plates and two notches, right?  I think that is very similar to the GT with the "T" plates and the three notches.  I have one pair with two and one pair with three notches.  And then I have one GT that I used in my 300SEI in that first position.  I'm going to send that one back to Andy to have it matched with an additional tube because my current 300B is only one 6SN7 per channel.  I really like the GTs and VT231s.  They have a more lush sound than the GTAs in my system.  A bit thicker with more body, but they also sound a little slower.  The little chrome domes are very speedy and high resolution in my system and I really like that. 
 
One thing I love about the 6SN7 is that it is so readily available.  There seems to be an endless supply of them out there.  I am excited to stock up even more on good tubes.  Maybe trade my Ken Rads with people who prefer the Ken Rads to the Sylvanias.  I just don't want to get any newer GTBs in there after the quality dropped a little. 
 
****On another note about resolution:  I have this amp that is a custom-made Gainclone, based on the 47 Labs Gaincard, which is based on the National Semiconductor Chip.  The amp is called an Audiosector Patek SE and it was reviewed by Srajan Ebaen on 6Moons and he wrote the following: 
 
[size=x-small]"When I recently switched from the Pateks to some very well-made 300B monos with a choice of superior output bottles, the very first and thereafter persistent impression of the valve amp was that of a rain of translucent ash. The crisp fresh air of the AudioSector view suddenly had millions of microscopic particles floating in it. The sonic scenery got softer and less direct and even priming the pump didn't remove that effect. Believe it or not - I couldn't wait to get back to the sand amps. They had more immediacy, directness, spunk, articulation and energy -- at any level -- than the most infamous direct-heated bottle of them all (though a superior implementation could certainly remove that thin veil - for a pretty penny)."[/size]
 
[size=x-small]The interesting thing is, (and I am happy to say it), I had the direct opposite experience when I put the Audiosector back in my amp after my 300B went back to my tech!  The Audiosector does not have nearly the resolution of my 300B.  There was a time when my 300B was about equal with the Audiosector amp.  The original output transformers in my 300B were made by James.  I wanted to upgrade those and I sent them to my tech and put the Audiosector amp in my system and thought, "Yeah, this sounds pretty good.  As good as the 300B."  My tech put Tango NY-15 3.5 Output Transformers in there (it took a while and I forgot how the amp sounded with the James iron).  When I got it back I thought, "Man, this sounds GREAT!"  But it wasn't until this past weekend, when I put Audiosector back in my system that I had objective proof of just how much better the Tango iron sounds.  Now my amp completely kills the Audiosector in every way.  It is really a shocking change. [/size]
 
The lesson, I guess, is that if you have an SET amp that you want to get to the highest level you can, consider upgrading the output transformer!  It is an extraordinary change.*****
 
Sorry to go off topic but I just wanted to tell someone! 

 

[tjkurita]

Also, Blackmore, it's my understanding that the 300SEI drives the 300B really hot.  I was wondering if you tried the Sophia solid plate 300B, rather than the mesh.  I believe Shuguang also has solid and mesh variants.  AND EML offers both as well.  I've heard lots of good things about the EML 300B.  A lot of Woo users love that tube.  In my opinion, if you are going to spend the money on the Shuguang Treasures or the EMLs you might as well go with the Westerns.  ALTHOUGH I have not heard the Shuguangs or the EMLs and it is such a personal thing to choose tubes (and as you've already mentioned synergy is vital)...  It's really hard to roll 300Bs.  There is nothing inexpensive about that!  Perhaps a generous soul in your part of the world would be willing to loan you some tubes or perhaps you can get samples sent from EML (aren't they a European brand?) 

 

[Larry I]

A friend bought EML meshplates when they first came out.  These tubes turned out to be extremely delicate and shortlived.  I run EML meshplate 2a3s myself.  These have been wonderful sounding tubes with a reasonably long life.  But, when I tried the same 2a3 meshplates in a friend's amp, the tubes started to flash and the amp made a sputtering sound.  Although the amp was biased fairly conservatively, the operating conditions were obviously beyond what the tubes could easily stand (perhaps plate voltage was too high even though current was not that high).  In short, I would not run EML meshplates in any kind of amp that runs the tubes hot. 
 
For the Cary 300 sei amp, I have always liked the WE tubes.  These are extremely rugged and long lasting tubes (the only durability issue is with the glue that holds the base on, but that is easily repaired).  I also generally like the AVVT 300b because it sounds more dynamic and less bloated in the bass than typical 300b tubes.  But, I haven't heard the AVVTs in the 300 sei.
 
I think it is also important, with this amp, to find the right 6sn7 tube.  The amp has a tendency to be overly lush sounding and a bit murky.  I would look for something that counteracts that propensity myself, though, I suppose that is a matter of taste and system matching.   I haven't heard the GE metal base tube in the 300 sei, though I have tried them in my own amps (Audionote Kagekis).  In my amps, the metal base GEs were too lean and edgy sounding (might be just the thing for the Cary).  My overall favorite 6sn7 is the Tungsol roundplate, but, those have become silly expensive (much more than the GE metal base).

 

[Blackmore]

Sylvania Bad Boys were produced during the 50's and seen as a very close valve to VT231 from the earlier 50's, but also WERE cheaper, however you still can catch them for a nice price, but in your situation, where they must be close matched, is something different, cos you pay the top price for such pairs. There are 2 "differ" Bad Boys, one have plates with 3 holes and another 2. Lots of talk about the differences of those, but I am not sure, never tried any with 2 holes and my have 3, here they are

 
 
I found something similar between those above and Tung Sols Mouse Ears and thats their plates, which to me are identical
 

 
 
About the 300B's. My first plan to get AVVT, then EML 300B XLS ( not sure if I can use Mesh version ) and after that I may try Sophia's Carbon plates. Also EAT's are interesting and if I dont find any NOS Tesla's, I may try them as well.
 
And yes, 300B's runs hot.
 


 

 

[Blackmore]

From the seller of EML's here I understood that you cant use them Mesh just in any 300B amp, so, maybe thats was the problem. AVVT tubes stated for 40.000 working hours, to me its to long before I may going to roll them
 
THX for your information.
 
Quote:

A friend bought EML meshplates when they first came out.  These tubes turned out to be extremely delicate and shortlived.  I run EML meshplate 2a3s myself.  These have been wonderful sounding tubes with a reasonably long life.  But, when I tried the same 2a3 meshplates in a friend's amp, the tubes started to flash and the amp made a sputtering sound.  Although the amp was biased fairly conservatively, the operating conditions were obviously beyond what the tubes could easily stand (perhaps plate voltage was too high even though current was not that high).  In short, I would not run EML meshplates in any kind of amp that runs the tubes hot. 
 
For the Cary 300 sei amp, I have always liked the WE tubes.  These are extremely rugged and long lasting tubes (the only durability issue is with the glue that holds the base on, but that is easily repaired).  I also generally like the AVVT 300b because it sounds more dynamic and less bloated in the bass than typical 300b tubes.  But, I haven't heard the AVVTs in the 300 sei.
 
I think it is also important, with this amp, to find the right 6sn7 tube.  The amp has a tendency to be overly lush sounding and a bit murky.  I would look for something that counteracts that propensity myself, though, I suppose that is a matter of taste and system matching.   I haven't heard the GE metal base tube in the 300 sei, though I have tried them in my own amps (Audionote Kagekis).  In my amps, the metal base GEs were too lean and edgy sounding (might be just the thing for the Cary).  My overall favorite 6sn7 is the Tungsol roundplate, but, those have become silly expensive (much more than the GE metal base).

 

[tjkurita]

Quote:

A friend bought EML meshplates when they first came out.  These tubes turned out to be extremely delicate and shortlived.  I run EML meshplate 2a3s myself.  These have been wonderful sounding tubes with a reasonably long life.  But, when I tried the same 2a3 meshplates in a friend's amp, the tubes started to flash and the amp made a sputtering sound.  Although the amp was biased fairly conservatively, the operating conditions were obviously beyond what the tubes could easily stand (perhaps plate voltage was too high even though current was not that high).  In short, I would not run EML meshplates in any kind of amp that runs the tubes hot. 
 
For the Cary 300 sei amp, I have always liked the WE tubes.  These are extremely rugged and long lasting tubes (the only durability issue is with the glue that holds the base on, but that is easily repaired).  I also generally like the AVVT 300b because it sounds more dynamic and less bloated in the bass than typical 300b tubes.  But, I haven't heard the AVVTs in the 300 sei.
 
I think it is also important, with this amp, to find the right 6sn7 tube.  The amp has a tendency to be overly lush sounding and a bit murky.  I would look for something that counteracts that propensity myself, though, I suppose that is a matter of taste and system matching.   I haven't heard the GE metal base tube in the 300 sei, though I have tried them in my own amps (Audionote Kagekis).  In my amps, the metal base GEs were too lean and edgy sounding (might be just the thing for the Cary).  My overall favorite 6sn7 is the Tungsol roundplate, but, those have become silly expensive (much more than the GE metal base).

 
 
Very interesting.  How do you like your Audio Note amps?  Is there a difference between Audio Note UK and Audio Note Japan?  I've always wondered about that.


 
Quote:

Sylvania Bad Boys were produced during the 50's and seen as a very close valve to VT231 from the earlier 50's, but also WERE cheaper, however you still can catch them for a nice price, but in your situation, where they must be close matched, is something different, cos you pay the top price for such pairs. There are 2 "differ" Bad Boys, one have plates with 3 holes and another 2. Lots of talk about the differences of those, but I am not sure, never tried any with 2 holes and my have 3, here they are

 
 
I found something similar between those above and Tung Sols Mouse Ears and thats their plates, which to me are identical
 

 
 
About the 300B's. My first plan to get AVVT, then EML 300B XLS ( not sure if I can use Mesh version ) and after that I may try Sophia's Carbon plates. Also EAT's are interesting and if I dont find any NOS Tesla's, I may try them as well.
 
And yes, 300B's runs hot.
 


 

I believe the bad boy is the GT, right?  I like that tube.  But I think I prefer the triangular plate GTA to it.  Larry brings up very good points regarding the synergy of the tubes.  The GTA really compliments that 5AR4 I am using. 

 

[YoNni22]

I have used both EML 300B xls and the WE 300B.  The EML provides a more sustained bass than the WEs but the WEs are better at female vocals.  In regards to the 6sn7 tubes, my all time favorite are the sylvanias with the metal base. My father is an audiophile so once in a while, I'll steal his and used them for a little bit.  But I usually run the red base sylvanias.   It is also true that this amp runs a little on the hot side.  I have seen mesh 300Bs sparkle with this amp.  I believe it was a ElectroVoice 300B.  Currently using the Cary in my turntable/speaker rig.
 

 

[Larry I]

thkurita,
 
My Audionote (uk) amp is terrific sounding, provided one only needs 6 watts/channel.  Like most 2a3 amps, the sound is leaner, and clearer sounding than 300b amps. 
 
Mr. Kondo and Mr. Qvortrup were once in business together but had a nasty falling out.  Mr. Qvortrup essentially got control of the business and the right to the Audionote name.  After the separation, Mr. Kondo started his own separate brand.  The products of both companies remained quite similar (Mr. Kondo's designs were the basis of both brands).  At the time of the separation, the critical equipment that is used to make the components that go into Audionote gear (e.g., the machines to draw their own silver wire used in transformers) stayed with Audionote (uk).  For a while, at least, some of the Kondo gear used off-the-shelf transformers rather than proprietary transformers.  I don't know if that remains the situation currently.  A few years ago, Mr. Kondo died while attending the CES convention in Las Vegas.  The company remains a contender for honors as a top maker of tube gear.
 
I've heard the Kondo top end linestages along side the Audionote (uk) gear.  Both sound terrific to me.  The Kondo gear looks better, to me, than the Audionote (uk) gear.

 

[tjkurita]

Thanks, Larry I.  Very interesting information.  So they have completely proprietary transformers?  Are they sold separately?  I know that AN capacitors are top of the line. And what about the kits?  The only thing I know about Audio Note is that there is different kinds and that it is also the greatest.  I am interested in these Japanese audio people who specialize in SET.  Like AN, Shindo, Wavac, Leben.  It's all very cool to me.  Of course, I can't afford any of it. 

 

[Larry I]

They do sell transformers.  Some are quite reasonably priced, others are incredibly expensive (7,000 pounds per transformer).  Go to the following:
 
 http://www.audionote.co.uk/comp/trans/trans_02_output.shtml

 

[aRRR]

Ive looked into WE 300B EML 300B, EAT 300B, WE 300B and finally chose the Shuguang treasure 300B-Z simply due to its (relative) cheap price and availability. Only a few hours on them but I gotta say, theyre addictive.
 
Also, just a few days ago Sophia electric released its royal Princess http://cgi.ebay.com/Sophia-Electric-Royal-Princess-300B-tubes-f-Western-amp-/150545695106?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item230d390182
With an introductory price of 999$ soon to be $1200.

 

[rosgr63]

Have you actually listened to all above mentioned tubes before making your final choice?
Thanks for the link.

 

[aRRR]

As much as I would love to, Im not in a position to audition these tubes, I did read alot of reviews and the treasure 300B came very close. I chose the treasure 300B due to its relative cheap price and availability.
 
Old stock WE300B go for like 1500+$USD, EAT and EML 300B are close to 1000 euros here in holland.

 

[Larry I]

In a recent post in Audioasylum, Peter Quovtrup, the head man at Audionote(uk), said that he equips their amps with "cheap Chinese" tubes because he likes them more than EMLs, JJs, etc.  Audionote is the kind of company that uses whatever works best and price is not really a big issue.  I suppose it is a matter of taste and compatibility, so it is not necessarily the case that "cheap Chinese" is preferable, but, there is at least a good chance that such tubes would work well.