[obobskivich]

I stand correct guys!   Well put arguments gentlemen. I seemed to have been misinformed by that doesn't surprise me by the boozos who taught me.. 

Oh well! About sound cards. Best bang 4 buck around 150? And best bang for buck for gaming period. 

I think the TiHD is still around $130 on Amazon, which makes it cheaper than the Recon or Xonar ST, so I'd go that route unless you really NEED the built in amp. If you need the built in amp, I prefer the Recon's drivers to basically anything, but the Xonar has a more robust IC behind the jack.

EDIT

Just loaded Amazon up to have a peek - the TiHD is $130 yes, but the Recon has come down to $120. Essence is like $200. I'd get the Recon and save the $10.

 

[NinjaSushi2]

Quote:

I think the TiHD is still around $130 on Amazon, which makes it cheaper than the Recon or Xonar ST, so I'd go that route unless you really NEED the built in amp. If you need the built in amp, I prefer the Recon's drivers to basically anything, but the Xonar has a more robust IC behind the jack.

Never too old to learn, never too late to admit you're wrong. Right? lol I have an Objective 2 amp so I really don't need one there and I would prefer using my Q701 to my promedias. I just want something that provides good, clean, sound, and good position for like counter strike, etc. Also do any of these SCs work on DosBox games? 

 

[obobskivich]

Never too old to learn, never too late to admit you're wrong. Right? lol I have an Objective 2 amp so I really don't need one there and I would prefer using my Q701 to my promedias. I just want something that provides good, clean, sound, and good position for like counter strike, etc. Also do any of these SCs work on DosBox games? 

I'd still get the Recon - it's the cheapest (yeah, that's my criteria). The Titanium HD is not a bad card either, I just don't love the X-Fi driver CP. The Xonar looks to be over that $150 bar (where's PurpleAngel with his understanding of the Xonar product line-up when you need him!).

Fidelity/quality all three will have. Positional audio - that's as much on the game and your speakers as it is on the card. The K701 do great with that though, and I can tell you that Left 4 Dead, Half-Life, and Portal with the 701 and X-Fi or Recon is absolutely eerie. I assume Counter-Strike will be similarly well served.

Regarding DosBox - uhhhh. I've never had an issue, but I don't really play "serious" games on DosBox, so I don't pay much attention (and usually just mute them) - I'm not running Daggerfall or anything nutty like that. TMK it should be no problem, because again, h/w accel is basically dead in the water, and DosBox is all abstraction/emulation, so it's a lot like ESX or similar, and as long as it will pass the audio out to "Default Device" or similar, Windows/etc can make it work. But don't quote me on this, especially for more complicated titles (like Daggerfall) - I'd find a guide for DosBox audio if you can. But it shouldn't matter which card you get.

 

[NinjaSushi2]

Quote:

EDIT
Just loaded Amazon up to have a peek - the TiHD is $130 yes, but the Recon has come down to $120. Essence is like $200. I'd get the Recon and save the $10.

So which card is the best then. I know that's a hard question but.. I play old school games, strat games, and FPS mostly. Not too big on music or movies for my PC and I usually game, surf the web, and a crap load of youtube.

 

[PurpleAngel]

Quote:

So which card is the best then. I know that's a hard question but.. I play old school games, strat games, and FPS mostly. Not too big on music or movies for my PC and I usually game, surf the web, and a crap load of youtube.

As you already have the O2 headphone amplifier, maybe get a used Creative Labs Titanium (non-HD), the refurbs sell for $50.

 

[obobskivich]

So which card is the best then. I know that's a hard question but.. I play old school games, strat games, and FPS mostly. Not too big on music or movies for my PC and I usually game, surf the web, and a crap load of youtube.

The easy answer is that you are unlikely to be able to pick them apart in a controlled setting. The more complex answer is that the Titanium HD has technically better parts on it, and the X-Fi driver CP and so on has more features than the Recon/SoundCore setup will give you (but it's doubtful you'll use most of them), including the Game Mode features. The Recon has easier to operate and more stable drivers though. And includes a microphone (which isn't as gimmicky as you might think).

So basically it's $10 more for some on-paper specs and less stable but more feature-rich drivers.

The other option would be to get something a lot less expensive that still brings a lot of multimedia features to the table, and save your money.

 

[NamelessPFG]

DOSBox games are going to be limited to whatever sound cards DOSBox can emulate. Since it's an emulator, for all intents and purposes, running DOSBox is like running a computer with set hardware specifications inside your computer. The most benefit you'd get out of sound cards like those is that, with a bit of configuration, you can set the General MIDI emulation to run on your sound card, and thus give you the choice of whatever MIDI soundfonts you desire.
 
I'm still inclined to recommend the Titanium HD first, but I consider it a proven card. The Recon3D line gives me some uncertainty with its gaming performance since I haven't had the chance to review one yet, and they'd be an easier sell if they didn't start at $100, too close to the Titanium HD's pricing.

 

[obobskivich]

I'm still inclined to recommend the Titanium HD first, but I consider it a proven card. The Recon3D line gives me some uncertainty with its gaming performance since I haven't had the chance to review one yet, and they'd be an easier sell if they didn't start at $100, too close to the Titanium HD's pricing.

They're cheaper than the TitaniumHD, and run fantastic. FWIW.

 

[NinjaSushi2]

lol I love you guys and you are both way above my head but I hope this gives you an idea.
 
My PC setup is up to 3k. I plan on adding another 2 monitors. (Speaking of which if you know of any 27" Tri monitor stands LET ME KNOW PLEASE!!) I have a 7970 OC'd to 1200/1475 and I plan on buying another one. (Hopefully soon) My i5 I have OC'd to 5GHz, I plan on buying better ram. (8GB Mushkin 1333MHz atm set to 9-9-9-24) My WC loop alone is 800 bucks (with a retard 420, should have stuck with a 360.) Etc. etc. etc... Why did I mention all this? Not E-peen because I'm sure you guys don't care. I don't want to say money is no object but I designed this rig to last me quite awhile and I don't want to skip out on sound.
 
So that being said. Would it make it easier if I said: "Which sound card will last me awhile without needing an upgrade? Which SC will provide me with all I need." I am no audiophile genius. Honestly I just learned about PCs early this year and just started researching the dog s*** out of them! lol! So yeah. Just need something better than on board garbage that sounds amazing, has good positioning and provides everything I need. 

 

[PurpleAngel]

Quote:

lol I love you guys and you are both way above my head but I hope this gives you an idea.
 
My PC setup is up to 3k. I plan on adding another 2 monitors. (Speaking of which if you know of any 27" Tri monitor stands LET ME KNOW PLEASE!!) I have a 7970 OC'd to 1200/1475 and I plan on buying another one. (Hopefully soon) My i5 I have OC'd to 5GHz, I plan on buying better ram. (8GB Mushkin 1333MHz atm set to 9-9-9-24) My WC loop alone is 800 bucks (with a retard 420, should have stuck with a 360.) Etc. etc. etc... Why did I mention all this? Not E-peen because I'm sure you guys don't care. I don't want to say money is no object but I designed this rig to last me quite awhile and I don't want to skip out on sound.
 
So that being said. Would it make it easier if I said: "Which sound card will last me awhile without needing an upgrade? Which SC will provide me with all I need." I am no audiophile genius. Honestly I just learned about PCs early this year and just started researching the dog s*** out of them! lol! So yeah. Just need something better than on board garbage that sounds amazing, has good positioning and provides everything I need. 

The Titanium HD is the best sound card for gamers, about equal in sound quality to the Asus Xonar Essence.
Just hook up a nice quality external headphone amplifier to the RCA outputs on the TiHD and your all set.

 

[obobskivich]

lol I love you guys and you are both way above my head but I hope this gives you an idea.

My PC setup is up to 3k. I plan on adding another 2 monitors. (Speaking of which if you know of any 27" Tri monitor stands LET ME KNOW PLEASE!!) I have a 7970 OC'd to 1200/1475 and I plan on buying another one. (Hopefully soon) My i5 I have OC'd to 5GHz, I plan on buying better ram. (8GB Mushkin 1333MHz atm set to 9-9-9-24) My WC loop alone is 800 bucks (with a retard 420, should have stuck with a 360.) Etc. etc. etc... Why did I mention all this? Not E-peen because I'm sure you guys don't care. I don't want to say money is no object but I designed this rig to last me quite awhile and I don't want to skip out on sound.

So that being said. Would it make it easier if I said: "Which sound card will last me awhile without needing an upgrade? Which SC will provide me with all I need." I am no audiophile genius. Honestly I just learned about PCs early this year and just started researching the dog s*** out of them! lol! So yeah. Just need something better than on board garbage that sounds amazing, has good positioning and provides everything I need. 

It won't really matter - they'll all be relevant for years to come. I could still be using my Audigy 2 ZS (which I got ~2003) if I felt like it, and the only reason I've added cards over the years is to satisfy multiple systems. They don't really go out of date as much as they go out of style. If that makes any sense.

And some unsolicited PC advice in general:

Unless you're trying to set records with benchmarking or similar, I'd forego CrossFire X or SLI - it's of minimal benefit to any game, and generally creates more headaches than it solves. If a single card cannot run a given application, two cards will not either. It also requires a lot more power, which means heat, which means noise. When reading published benchmarks, big numbers on the board are nice, but you need to consider if: A) your monitor can even display it and B) it's relevant to your eyes. In a lot of cases the answer is NO to both (all of the benchmarks you posted earlier fit into that with the exception of some relatively high end monitors; tell me what you've got and I'll tell you if you fit into that exception, but since you said 27", I'll put my hand to fire and say you don't).

On the monitor thing - look at Ergotron, but iirc 3x24 is still the big boys. So what you can do instead is buy three separate articulated arms (Monoprice sells one for like $20) and set them up on the desk, it'll let you level and adjust the monitors properly, and costs a lot less than the $300-$400 Ergo LX stands. And you get more points of articulation.

 

[PurpleAngel]

Quote:

My PC setup is up to 3k. I plan on adding another 2 monitors. (Speaking of which if you know of any 27" Tri monitor stands LET ME KNOW PLEASE!!) I have a 7970 OC'd to 1200/1475 and I

I believe there are some lower priced 27" S-IPS panel monitors just now coming out of Korea.

 

[NinjaSushi2]

Quote:

It won't really matter - they'll all be relevant for years to come. I could still be using my Audigy 2 ZS (which I got ~2003) if I felt like it, and the only reason I've added cards over the years is to satisfy multiple systems. They don't really go out of date as much as they go out of style. If that makes any sense.
And some unsolicited PC advice in general:
Unless you're trying to set records with benchmarking or similar, I'd forego CrossFire X or SLI - it's of minimal benefit to any game, and generally creates more headaches than it solves. If a single card cannot run a given application, two cards will not either. It also requires a lot more power, which means heat, which means noise. When reading published benchmarks, big numbers on the board are nice, but you need to consider if: A) your monitor can even display it and B) it's relevant to your eyes. In a lot of cases the answer is NO to both (all of the benchmarks you posted earlier fit into that with the exception of some relatively high end monitors; tell me what you've got and I'll tell you if you fit into that exception, but since you said 27", I'll put my hand to fire and say you don't).
On the monitor thing - look at Ergotron, but iirc 3x24 is still the big boys. So what you can do instead is buy three separate articulated arms (Monoprice sells one for like $20) and set them up on the desk, it'll let you level and adjust the monitors properly, and costs a lot less than the $300-$400 Ergo LX stands. And you get more points of articulation.

Uh.. ok? I have a Yamakasi Catleap Q270LED. S-IPS, 2560x1440, 6ms* GTG, 60Hz but can be overclocked. Also CF and SLI do make a difference. I know you know more than me but I know for a fact running two cards parallel is better than one. Also everything is under water so noise and heat doesn't really matter. My pump is a D5 or Alphacool VPP655 that maxes at 1500 lph so cooling doesn't matter. I have 1 GPU and 1 CPU hooked up to a 420 rad (30 FPI) at the moment which I plan on adding another 7970 on CF. Even that heat isn't a problem. I have a 750w Gold 80 Plus so power requirement is almost nulled as I maybe only pull 550w atm. My board is a Z77-GD65 so that isn't a problem but I am thinking of getting the Sniper 3 and moving this mobo to another PC.
 
But saying SLI and CF is minimal is quite odd to me. I've seen the benchmarks and test showing the difference in FPS with full AA16, VSync and more turned on. I also have a 120GB Mushkin SSD that I plan on buying another and running it in Raid 0. With that sniper I can get an mSSD for my OS and make my two SSD completely gaming oriented along with GIMP for GFX editing. 
 
If you haven't heard of my monitor it's no surprise. I bought mine back in Feb. about 2 weeks after they released to the states. Here is a good review http://www.themardukreport.com/review-yamakasi-catleap-q270/ but I recommend the thread on OCN that has well over 7000 post now. (Not that post count matters) I think I was like the 30th person on OCN to buy one and I want to buy 2 more before they jack the prices up on it.
 
Anyways yeah. Back to sound cards or more on computers?
 
 
Edit: Sorry! GTG is 6ms not 5ms. I love the damn thing but the stock stand is not worth a damn! I hear you can buy a aftermarket stand but I haven't bothered looking.

 

[obobskivich]

Uh.. ok? I have a Yamakasi Catleap Q270LED. S-IPS, 2560x1440, 6ms* GTG, 60Hz but can be overclocked.

lol overclocked monitor - that's a new one. At least for an LCD. Anyways, at 60 hz (which is what I figured), your field rate will make those 200-300-400 fps values worthless (even on a 120hz display it makes them worthless). Simple mechanics. So don't worry about fps minimums over 60.

Also CF and SLI do make a difference. I know you know more than me but I know for a fact running two cards parallel is better than one.

Le sigh.

Look up Amdahl's Law. It makes a difference iff the application can lend itself to being spawned out and there isn't a stability issue, but if you have frame dependent data or other issues with AFR/SFR and can't run ASMP, you will take a huge hit. At absolute best in a perfect world scenario, you'll realize like 70% per core (and this seems to translate up to four, which is the top of the mark for FSR-MP setups, bigger systems go to OOR and usually SCREAM (but you'll spend a quarter million bucks and it'll need a 480V line - oh yeah and it won't do Direct3D, that's another minor detail), which is commendable, but if you already get 100+ FPS (which you do), it doesn't matter. Even if you could see it (which you can't), your monitor can't put it up. So there's that.

To give you a giggly real-world example - I can put up Halo at ~400 FPS with three GPUs, but seriously who the hell cares? It stops being "more good" at 60 FPS stable, and I can do that with a single chip on 1/4th the power with less than half the noise - so why spend the extra bread? Same idea applies everywhere else. And 32XFSAA runs like hammered hell on everything; fun to watch on an XHD and all, but when you're tapping out like 900-1000W from the wall for 31 FPS and choppy gameplay, blech.

Also everything is under water so noise and heat doesn't really matter. My pump is a D5 or Alphacool VPP655 that maxes at 1500 lph so cooling doesn't matter. I have 1 GPU and 1 CPU hooked up to a 420 rad (30 FPI) at the moment which I plan on adding another 7970 on CF. Even that heat isn't a problem. I have a 750w Gold 80 Plus so power requirement is almost nulled as I maybe only pull 550w atm. My board is a Z77-GD65 so that isn't a problem but I am thinking of getting the Sniper 3 and moving this mobo to another PC.

You don't wanna run an SMPS at 80% or higher - that's inefficient (I don't care about badges), for what you're describing you want a bigger PSU. Especially with the overclocking.

But saying SLI and CF is minimal is quite odd to me. I've seen the benchmarks and test showing the difference in FPS with full AA16, VSync and more turned on. I also have a 120GB Mushkin SSD that I plan on buying another and running it in Raid 0. With that sniper I can get an mSSD for my OS and make my two SSD completely gaming oriented along with GIMP for GFX editing. 

Here's the thing:

Vsync will lock your FPS to field rate (which is what you want at the end of the day but we don't care for the purposes of this discussion). The other stuff, meh, AF has been relatively free for about a decade, and AA is nice but with most titles thanks to ye olde RSX, you have no real need for that much power. And in a year or two when Microsoft gets up and does something, we'll be dumping all of this gear in a sinkhole and burying it because it'll instantly go outmode. SLI and CF *are* minimal for real-world applications because you either gain performance you don't need or can't realize, or you spend money to try and run something you can't run.

I would...not do SSDs in RAID0 with any data you remotely care about (I wouldn't use RAID0 for any data you care about at all actually - it should not have the R in the name).

If you haven't heard of my monitor it's no surprise. I bought mine back in Feb. about 2 weeks after they released to the states. Here is a good review http://www.themardukreport.com/review-yamakasi-catleap-q270/ but I recommend the thread on OCN that has well over 7000 post now. (Not that post count matters) I think I was like the 30th person on OCN to buy one and I want to buy 2 more before they jack the prices up on it.

Looks neat.

Anyways yeah. Back to sound cards or more on computers?

Flip a coin between Recon and Titanium.

Edit: Sorry! GTG is 6ms not 5ms. I love the damn thing but the stock stand is not worth a damn! I hear you can buy a aftermarket stand but I haven't bothered looking.

And I'll lay you odds that said GTG spec is still faked (they ALL lie, it's not against a given product). Try this out:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10828&cs_id=1082808&p_id=5402&seq=1&format=2

You'd need three, but it'll give you the most adjustment, and you can get the height right.

This is prettier:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10828&cs_id=1082808&p_id=9259&seq=1&format=2

This is fancier:
http://www.ergotron.com/Products/tabid/65/PRDID/522/language/en-US/Default.aspx (but will only do two monitors at that size)

I'd probably go with the first option. Things should be cheap.

 

[NamelessPFG]

Quote:

They're cheaper than the TitaniumHD, and run fantastic. FWIW.

 
Well, my concern with the Recon3D would be the integrated DACs, ADCs, and whatnot which can't hold up to the Titanium HD's discrete parts...on paper, anyway. But as we all know in the field of audio, it's never that simple.
 
That, and if it does do DirectSound3D and OpenAL in software, how does that hold up to the X-Fi's hardware-accelerated implementation in sound quality terms? Have you tested it in RightMark 3DSound's positional accuracy test or anything else like that? Can you max out the sound quality settings in Battlefield 2 or 2142?
 
On the other hand, it looks like they've ditched the annoying mode-switching thing, and the mode lock bug along with it. No worries about being in the right mode to have the features you want.
 
I feel as if I'm the only one who can answer the questions I have about the Recon3D cards through hands-on experimentation, but I'd need one first. Care to lend me one to audition, along with your Koss ESP/950 setup? (Yeah, like that's ever happening...who would just lend $100+ sound cards to random people on the Internet to review, let alone expensive electrostatic headphone systems? I seriously want to put both to the test at some point, though...)
 
Actually, now that I remember about it, the Recon3D USB is of special interest to me if it can do all the DS3D/OAL/EAX/etc. stuff effectively through a USB connection, while also making a nice Astro Mixamp alternative for S/PDIF sources like consoles. Have you ever tried one of those and compared it to its PCI-Express sound card kin?