[Zachik]

Love these 5 minute demo show reviews.

Hey - I wanted to give them a chance! Those are totally un-usable for me!! Could not listen for even 5 minutes straight, due to extreme discomfort

 

[twister6]

@zmhaha : you made a very passionate post, and that's what we all here for, to express our opinions and to share our experience. Btw, since you are new to Head-fi, and as you mentioned yourself "only into the hobby for a few months", did anybody extended to you our official greeting of "Welcome to Head-fi, sorry about your wallet" ? There is a very good reason for that

Prices are high because people are willing to pay it. Nobody forcing anybody, and there are certainly many options from budget to high end, as you have seen at the show. Also, if a company has a product line with multiple iems where a single driver starts at some baseline point, it goes up as you add drivers to the next model where the price often doesn't reflect the incremental cost. This is a known fact of diminishing returns.

I don't think people are blind or asleep, trust me, they are awake. It's all about choices, no need to start the revolution Everybody works hard for their money, and they make a decision how they want to spend it. It might not make sense to you, but it does to some others, based on their allocated budget and everything else they tried and a/b compared (and heard the difference to justify the extra cost). As you spend more time on head-fi, you will realize it's not the same as a general consumer community where Beats can sell their headphones through celebrity endorsements. Nobody really cares in here about that, but you have to be careful with some new toy syndrome hype or over enthusiastic impressions. Just saying

And btw, if you auditioned 64audio product line, the one you referred to in your original post, and didn't hear much difference between their low end and high end models, consider yourself to be a very fortunate person since you can be satisfied with a budget priced IEM as much as the one which cost 10x more

 

[SCBob]

Went the canjam for 2 whole days, and did not waste a minute.
Through my whole life, I have tried to be a man of reason and logic, in fact, I am about to graduate with a phd in mathematics, if that implies anything.

I am only into the hobby for a few months, but learned as much as I could. This is my 1st Canjam, and it was awsome!

There are many positive things I'd like to mention but I'd rather focus on some very bad trend that struck me the most, especially on the IEM part, which has gone long for some time:
I felt utterly disgusted by a few snake oil vendors selling an universal IEM for $2000+ and even near the $4000 range. Sure, some costly marketing might have done to get some celebrities wearing their products.... so what? They are performers and entertainers.. not 'audiophiles'. But guess whos ending up pay for it? I feel sad for those being exploited by these vendors for their passion. But after all, it is capitalism and analogues things are happening everywhere.

Punching a hole at some particular spot on the IEM housing call it a technology that eliminates listening fatigue? Stuffing as many as divers as they can into it and call it a "world first"? Comon...

FYI, I and my friends struggled to hear any difference between the flagship and their "lesser" products, which are, btw, in the $1k to $3k range as well.

At last, I just want to say to my fellows who share the same passions as I do: WAKE UP!

Well, zmhaha’s post is an eye opener, a cautionary tale for “audiophiles” who are susceptible to the wiles of the snake oil vendors. Although not a PhD in mathematics, I have developed a semblance of reason and logic in my day job as an M.D., Ph.D. in medical practice. One thing that I have learned over a long career is that “a few months” is enough to learn nearly nothing. I’ve only been into this hobby for about 5 years and my tastes have changed and ability to critically listen have grown during that time. I continue to appreciate the experienced reviewers and value their opinions and guidance. Personally, I found the “WAKE UP!” finale not the best way to communicate helpful information.

 

[Giraku]

Many of them I could easily identify the differences in some major acoustic characteristics, not matter of good or bad sounds, but matter of preferences. So a line-up ranging from $1k to $3k+, all tuned very similarly, except some fine details requiring good listening condition and experienced ears to distinguish? That's just some lazy engineering, yet justified by the ''hole'' and ''world first''.

Overall, 'if you can't tell the difference... just don't buy it..' the very sentence has been said over and over and over. The thing is, the other way of the phrase "buy only when you can tell a difference" is often not followed because some people do buy them, but in fact can't tell the difference beyond placebos due to the "technologies" and "world first" and the "$$$$ it costs".

At the price range of over $1000, performance / price ratio is not linear or proportional like the entry level products. Mostly it matters of taste. If someone can hear a difference and is willing to pay the price, that's good. Companies are offering options not trying to sell "snake oil". If it is a real scam, very few people fall into the trap.
In fact, I heard a difference and bought a very expensive IEM with a hole (and just with 4 drivers) at the CanJam. The IEM makes me smile every time I listen. That all matters to me. It's worth the money because I spent my money for my satisfaction.

 

[SCBob]

At the price range of over $1000, performance / price ratio is not linear or proportional like the entry level products. Mostly it matters of taste. If someone can hear a difference and is willing to pay the price, that's good. Companies are offering options not trying to sell "snake oil". If it is a real scam, very few people fall into the trap.
In fact, I heard a difference and bought a very expensive IEM with a hole (and just with 4 drivers) at the CanJam. The IEM makes me smile every time I listen. That all matters to me. It's worth the money because I spent my money for my satisfaction.

Great post. It's worth it because you value it. Late night as I listen to music at home on my Utopia I find it hard to believe that music can sound so beautiful. I felt guilty buying them new - so excessive! - but the enjoyment keeps on coming!

 

[Beagle]

Hey - I wanted to give them a chance! Those are totally un-usable for me!! Could not listen for even 5 minutes straight, due to extreme discomfort

The pads are initially stiff but soften somewhat over time with use. I feel that a softer pad material would be detrimental to the sonics, as would a padded headband. To me it's like complaining that a Porsche doesn't ride like a limo. But it sure accellerates and corners better.

 

[zmhaha]

At the price range of over $1000, performance / price ratio is not linear or proportional like the entry level products. Mostly it matters of taste. If someone can hear a difference and is willing to pay the price, that's good. Companies are offering options not trying to sell "snake oil". If it is a real scam, very few people fall into the trap.
In fact, I heard a difference and bought a very expensive IEM with a hole (and just with 4 drivers) at the CanJam. The IEM makes me smile every time I listen. That all matters to me. It's worth the money because I spent my money for my satisfaction.

Yea, 'snake oil' was too bit of a strong word for it.. I shall retract it.

The diminishing return of course, just as many other products from different categories. But don't make it flat.. Even if that's must be the case, then at least make the line-up well differentiated enough and making it a 'matter or taste'.

 

[icefalkon]

At the price range of over $1000, performance / price ratio is not linear or proportional like the entry level products. Mostly it matters of taste. If someone can hear a difference and is willing to pay the price, that's good. Companies are offering options not trying to sell "snake oil". If it is a real scam, very few people fall into the trap.
In fact, I heard a difference and bought a very expensive IEM with a hole (and just with 4 drivers) at the CanJam. The IEM makes me smile every time I listen. That all matters to me. It's worth the money because I spent my money for my satisfaction.

Giraku...what did you get??

 

[icefalkon]

Well, zmhaha’s post is an eye opener, a cautionary tale for “audiophiles” who are susceptible to the wiles of the snake oil vendors. Although not a PhD in mathematics, I have developed a semblance of reason and logic in my day job as an M.D., Ph.D. in medical practice. One thing that I have learned over a long career is that “a few months” is enough to learn nearly nothing. I’ve only been into this hobby for about 5 years and my tastes have changed and ability to critically listen have grown during that time. I continue to appreciate the experienced reviewers and value their opinions and guidance. Personally, I found the “WAKE UP!” finale not the best way to communicate helpful information.

Well said Dr...well said.

 

[icefalkon]

At the price range of over $1000, performance / price ratio is not linear or proportional like the entry level products. Mostly it matters of taste. If someone can hear a difference and is willing to pay the price, that's good. Companies are offering options not trying to sell "snake oil". If it is a real scam, very few people fall into the trap.
In fact, I heard a difference and bought a very expensive IEM with a hole (and just with 4 drivers) at the CanJam. The IEM makes me smile every time I listen. That all matters to me. It's worth the money because I spent my money for my satisfaction.

Probably the best explanation I've ever read on here. No joke. Well done!

 

[JimL11]

The pads are initially stiff but soften somewhat over time with use. I feel that a softer pad material would be detrimental to the sonics, as would a padded headband. To me it's like complaining that a Porsche doesn't ride like a limo. But it sure accellerates and corners better.

No, it's like complaining that when you sit in a Porsche you can't see over the steering wheel and you can't reach the brake pedal. You have to wear a headphone, so if it's uncomfortable it's a non-starter - unless you're a masochist.

 

[sansfin]

1: Punching a hole is not an technology at all. But, given the the shape, size, and material of the IEM housing, as well the characteristics of the drivers, finding a certain spot to punch the hole to achieve certain goal involves some R&D, but very minimal! Thus I find it hard to justify something like this as a technology, unless the bar is really low.
2: Who knows its over or not. As long they are desperate to 'WOW' consumers with some 'world first', this can be an easy route.

Btw, I tried the Campfire, Periodic, and many more. Many of them I could easily identify the differences in some major acoustic characteristics, not matter of good or bad sounds, but matter of preferences. So a line-up ranging from $1k to $3k+, all tuned very similarly, except some fine details requiring good listening condition and experienced ears to distinguish? That's just some lazy engineering, yet justified by the ''hole'' and ''world first''.

Speaking of the Emperor's new clothes...

 

[tim0chan]

1: Punching a hole is not an technology at all. But, given the the shape, size, and material of the IEM housing, as well the characteristics of the drivers, finding a certain spot to punch the hole to achieve certain goal involves some R&D, but very minimal! Thus I find it hard to justify something like this as a technology, unless the bar is really low.
2: Who knows its over or not. As long they are desperate to 'WOW' consumers with some 'world first', this can be an easy route.
3: I certainly did not buy it. I bet vast majority of the experienced people did not too. Plus, I said 'I and my friends could not hear any difference', and never claimed anything as if I am stating an objective fact.
Btw, I tried the Campfire, Periodic, and many more. Many of them I could easily identify the differences in some major acoustic characteristics, not matter of good or bad sounds, but matter of preferences. So a line-up ranging from $1k to $3k+, all tuned very similarly, except some fine details requiring good listening condition and experienced ears to distinguish? That's just some lazy engineering, yet justified by the ''hole'' and ''world first''.

Overall, 'if you can't tell the difference... just don't buy it..' the very sentence has been said over and over and over. The thing is, the other way of the phrase "buy only when you can tell a difference" is often not followed because some people do buy them, but in fact can't tell the difference beyond placebos due to the "technologies" and "world first" and the "$$$$ it costs".

The "hole" you are referring to is already a controversial subject dating back to (now) three years old, so it is safe to say you r not familiar with the subject. Please look on the relevant threads to familiarise yourself before starting abt the "hole".
The campfire and periodic audio lineups are supposed to be tuned different for every iem, other manufacturers choose some signatures (3-4) usually. Then they change the driver configuration to fit the price point. As the prices, number of drivers etc increase, the technical performance of the product increases ie: soundstage, details, resolution. I personally do not have "golden ears" and my wallet does restrict me somewhat but I am sure I can here the difference between the lineup. (From hours at various dealers in sg. Shout-out to music sanctuary, zeppelin, e1pasg and euphoria audio)
@64Audio , maybe you guys can explain apex tech better

 

[icefalkon]

Well said Tim. It seems a lot of new players here aren't familiar with the vernacular or processes being discussed. It's not their fault, they're new and really just need to be pointed in the right direction I think.

 

[zmhaha]

@zmhaha : you made a very passionate post, and that's what we all here for, to express our opinions and to share our experience. Btw, since you are new to Head-fi, and as you mentioned yourself "only into the hobby for a few months", did anybody extended to you our official greeting of "Welcome to Head-fi, sorry about your wallet" ? There is a very good reason for that

Prices are high because people are willing to pay it. Nobody forcing anybody, and there are certainly many options from budget to high end, as you have seen at the show. Also, if a company has a product line with multiple iems where a single driver starts at some baseline point, it goes up as you add drivers to the next model where the price often doesn't reflect the incremental cost. This is a known fact of diminishing returns.

I don't think people are blind or asleep, trust me, they are awake. It's all about choices, no need to start the revolution Everybody works hard for their money, and they make a decision how they want to spend it. It might not make sense to you, but it does to some others, based on their allocated budget and everything else they tried and a/b compared (and heard the difference to justify the extra cost). As you spend more time on head-fi, you will realize it's not the same as a general consumer community where Beats can sell their headphones through celebrity endorsements. Nobody really cares in here about that, but you have to be careful with some new toy syndrome hype or over enthusiastic impressions. Just saying

And btw, if you auditioned 64audio product line, the one you referred to in your original post, and didn't hear much difference between their low end and high end models, consider yourself to be a very fortunate person since you can be satisfied with a budget priced IEM as much as the one which cost 10x more

The only reason why I wrote what I wrote is that I feel sad and angry about something. Sure similar things have been happening everywhere all the time but, because I am into this particular thing, I think of others in the same community as my comrades (not sure if its the right word).
Being passionate or in love, about something or someone, his/hers judgement is clouded, thus becoming vulnerable to be preyed on. I could not keep my silence when seeing some parties are trying to exploit this.
Someone years or decades into this may laugh at me for a some reasons, but I guess its just because he/she has become numbed about the situations already.
After all, 'people are willing to pay what they THINK its worth', no doubt. But I hate to see when their judgement is proactively being muddied too much by other for-profit organizations.

I don't use IEMs very often, maybe 1 hour a day, and went through about 10 of them ranging from $300 to $3000 retail, but finally settled at the AK T8ie Mk2, even though a spare pair just in case I break or lose it someday.
I tried the 5 of Campfire's IEMs, and the differences were very obvious in terms of sound characteristics, so among these, I'd guess its more of matter of taste more than one is doing better than the other.
As for the 64audio lines, I did hear all 4 of them. Overall the sound characteristics were tuned very much alike. In detail, I could tell a very little subtle differences between 2 of them, but I had to do it with utter focus and going back and forth the same part of the songs multiple times.