[MSXX]

Very. I remember how much hard work it took by a variety of folks) to show people "we are real and want to make you happy".

It is hard and takes years to build reputation. But you cannot list "goodwill" or "reputation" on a balance sheet, since it is "intangible", unlike cold hard cash in the bank.



Hmm, I designed the iPower Plus, which basically the same PCB and parts in cheap plastic case for 1/3rd of the money. This was originally made for the Pro series in 15V/4A.

I had advocated a 2-wire power input and including an "EarthLink" (refuse to call it ground hog) for cases where a "missing earth" causes noise.

The thing is for low noise and using mains power the system MUST have one device referenced to earth, BUT ONLY ONE!

Not having an earth is now increasingly common and again causes noise.

A variety of international and national agency requirements for electrical safety make the life of the designer no easier.

The whole malarkey meant iPower Plus ended up with an earth. As Elite is basically iPower Plus in drag and dancing hula, it's the same.





Let's be more precise, the problem didn't get fixed. Because there is no fix that is also street legal.

One problem was traded for another, but the "another problem" is one iFi has a solution readily available.



Best I know they are safe to use AND perform as designed.



They actually are. You just payed expensive for the "dress in drags and do the hula" part, which is the way it usually is.



Good luck. I suggested, back when I still had something to do with ifi, to use what is now the "WIIM" platform, concentrated on all the circuitry around where iFi had ready solutions and could add value.

Seems after I did "Exit, Stage, left" someone decided the basic idea was good, but why give money you can put into your pocket to someone good at job when you can do it badly?

Thor

Thanks for taking your time to answer now that ifi do not.

I am relieved to hear that there is no safety issue. I have quoted one the posts below for you to see as I don’t understand any of it. Some are pointing to a missing chassis ground on the elite and to a possible issue using the included dc converter jack. And last to a something with the cable and the polarity on the elite. Now, some claim that all future elite have been changed and chassis grounded…

As you can hear I don’t have any technical knowledge. I just want to hear from the company that I bought a product from that it is safe to use as it is hooked up to electronics that I hold quite dearly, and that it is performing its best. I also believe that I am entitled to a fixed version if it’s indeed been changed/ fixed because of issues.

When a company begins to deceive and mislead and starts to only respond when a lot of customers put the heat on - then I become suspicious as well.

The Elite's hardwired grounded DC negative does raise inquiry about utilizing the included DC converter jack reversing the polarity of barrel and center pin...

I'm not a marketing guy for this app so I am curious as to how many applications use a +12V supply where the DC jack barrel needs to be positive.
The iPower X would theoretically allow a -12V supply application using the converter jack connected to a device with common barrel.
But on the Elite, I believe this would short the power supply out

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

The Elite's hardwired grounded DC negative does raise inquiry about utilizing the included DC converter jack reversing the polarity of barrel and center pin...

Not sure why. it "earthed", not grounded. It's an electrical safety feature. If using a metal case without measures for insulation that qualify for "double insulation", all metal parts that can be touched must be connected to earth.

HOWEVER, to include the polarity inverter plug is odd. Let me explain why.

About the only devices that have the inverted polarity in wide use are Guitar Effect pedals, which operate at 9V and low current.

It makes no sense elsewhere.

I'm not a marketing guy for this app so I am curious as to how many applications use a +12V supply where the DC jack barrel needs to be positive.

Non that I know of. So it's pointless. I suspect it is included without thinking because it was included with iPower 9V (where it makes a whole lotta sense) and someone just copied what was done there without understanding the purpose of the polarity inverter plug.

The iPower X would theoretically allow a -12V supply application using the converter jack connected to a device with common barrel.
But on the Elite, I believe this would short the power supply out

Not necessarily. And even if it did (which implies a complex system with an earth somewhere that eventually connects to the +12V Gnd, all that will happen is that the power supply shuts down.

Some are pointing to a missing chassis ground on the elite

I would be very surprised if the metal case was not hard bonded to earth. It's essentially a requirement (legal or agency) if a 3-Pin power connection is used. I mean any electronic engineer, heck a basic service tech should know that.

Ok, maybe I'd not be that surprised, knowing the engineering staff left at ifi, still the unit should have gone through safety certification which it would have failed. Unless of course the unit was not submitted to the relevant safety certification.

Which would be rather questionable, to sell an off-mains power supply to the general public that is inherently unsafe and has not been tested for safety would show very poor business sense.

Plus, in this case the legal requirements, I think would, obligate iFi and it's dealers to issue a total recall.

Thor

 

[MSXX]

Plus, in this case the legal requirements, I think would, obligate iFi and it's dealers to issue a total recall.

Thanks again, Thorsten ! Now I/ we are just waiting for ifi to tell us what is what here. I am waiting for your reply, @iFi audio

 

[Infoseeker]

How much more powerful does that put the Diablo over the gryphon?

Less than double the power?

 

[BS5711]

How much more powerful does that put the Diablo over the gryphon?

Less than double the power?

I wondered when someone would raise that question. I have also wondered about the output of other iFi devices.

Based on my experience with the Gryphon and the original Diablo I would guess that the Gryphon puts out nowhere near 1 watt in the real world.

The Diablo feels like it puts out vastly more power than the Gryphon, well over twice. The Gryphon seems to me to be more in line with my FiiO M11 Plus which is rated at 550mw.

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

The Diablo feels like it puts out vastly more power than the Gryphon, well over twice. The Gryphon seems to me to be more in line with my FiiO M11 Plus which is rated at 550mw.

It is exactly this "feeling" that makes reliable, comparable measurements important.

More, power is very misleading, we need the maximum output in Volt at a given load. And we need the normalised headphone sensitivity in dB/V.

And ignore the volume control Position, it is not an indicator of "power". It is strictly "gain". Labels like turbo are also arbitrary.

The Gryphon at 1% THD should manage around 5.8V into 32 Ohm BAL or 3V into 16 Ohm SE. For higher impedances (say 300 Ohm and up) we get around 7V into 300 Ohm BAL or 3.5V SE. Measurements here:

https://www.l7audiolab.com/f/ifi-gryphon/

Based on Goldensounds Measurements the maximum output with 1% THD from Diablo 2 into 32 Ohm BAL was 7.2V.

That is a 1.8dB difference. Meaning the difference in maximum loudness is a lot less than 3dB, the limit of what can be reliably detected by listening to music.

Based on Goldensounds Measurements the maximum output with 1% THD from Diablo 2 into 32 Ohm SE was 8.7V.

That is a 3.5dB difference. Meaning the difference in maximum loudness is more than 3dB, but just above the limit of what can be reliably detected by listening to music.

So realistically, for 32 Ohm or lower impedance headphones Gryphon and Diablo deliver around the same maximum SPL from a given headphone within around 3dB or less.

What we have not looked at however is how the Diablo 2 does into 300 Ohm. There it can (well the original could) output 20V into 300 Ohm at 1% THD.

Compared to 7.6V on the Gryphon that is a massive 8 dB difference and it is maintained for SE respectively at 10V and 3.8V.

Now, translating this whole thing into power looks like this

Gryphon: 1.05W 32R BAL
Gryphon: 0.62W 32R SE
Gryphon: 0.16W 300R BAL
Gryphon: 0.04W 300R SE

Diablo: 1.62W 32R BAL
Diablo: 2.36W 32R SE
Diablo: 1.33W 300R BAL
Diablo: 0.33W 300R SE

So, when driving low impedance headphones in BAL, there is not a lot between the two in terms of power.

But for high impedance headphones the ratio between power from Gryphon and Diablo (2) is nearly 1:10 in favour of Diablo.

But the output voltages already told this story.

Why are not headphones rated in dB/1V (or V/90dB) and headphone amp's in how many volts they provide (continuous and peak according to AES2-2012) in to a set of representative loads AND they should be rated in "dB/V".

With Headphones rated dB/V (like sennheiser does) and headphone amp's in dB/V (dB over 1V) you just add the two numbers to get maximum peak SPL and numbers start making sense, rather than to cause confusion and mislead.

Thor

 

[BS5711]

It is exactly this "feeling" that makes reliable, comparable measurements important.

More, power is very misleading, we need the maximum output in Volt at a given load. And we need the normalised headphone sensitivity in dB/V.

And ignore the volume control Position, it is not an indicator of "power". It is strictly "gain". Labels like turbo are also arbitrary.

The Gryphon at 1% THD should manage around 5.8V into 32 Ohm BAL or 3V into 16 Ohm SE. For higher impedances (say 300 Ohm and up) we get around 7V into 300 Ohm BAL or 3.5V SE.

Based on Goldensounds Measurements the maximum output with 1% THD from Diablo 2 into 32 Ohm BAL was 7.2V.

That is a 1.8dB difference. Meaning the difference in maximum loudness is a lot less than 3dB, the limit of what can be reliably detected by listening to music.

Based on Goldensounds Measurements the maximum output with 1% THD from Diablo 2 into 32 Ohm SE was 8.7V.

That is a 3.5dB difference. Meaning the difference in maximum loudness is more than 3dB, but just above the limit of what can be reliably detected by listening to music.

So realistically, for 32 Ohm or lower impedance headphones Gryphon and Diablo deliver around the same maximum SPL from a given headphone within around 3dB or less.

What we have not looked at however is how the Diablo 2 does into 300 Ohm. There it can (well the original could) output 20V into 300 Ohm at 1% THD.

Compared to 7.6V on the Gryphon that is a massive 8 dB difference and it is maintained for SE respectively at 10V and 3.8V.

Now, translating this whole thing into power looks like this

Gryphon: 1.05W 32R BAL
Gryphon: 0.62W 32R SE
Gryphon: 0.16W 300R BAL
Gryphon: 0.04W 300R SE

Diablo: 1.62W 32R BAL
Diablo: 2.36W 32R SE
Diablo: 1.33W 300R BAL
Diablo: 0.33W 300R SE

So, when driving low impedance headphones in BAL, there is not a lot between the two in terms of power.

But for high impedance headphones the ratio between power from Gryphon and Diablo (2) is nearly 1:10 in favour of Diablo.

But the output voltages already told this story.

Why are not headphones rated in dB/1V (or V/90dB) and headphone amp's in how many volts they provide (continuous and peak according to AES2-2012) in to a set of representative loads AND they should be rated in "dB/V".

With Headphones rated dB/V (like sennheiser does) and headphone amp's in dB/V (dB over 1V) you just add the two numbers to get maximum peak SPL and numbers start making sense, rather than to cause confusion and mislead.

Thor

Thanks Thorsten,

I don’t know where the difference comes from and I can’t argue your maths but I do know that into a 13 ohm load of a Dan Clark Aeon out of balanced or single ended the Diablo can achieve a perceived volume far in excess of the Gryphon, a volume level that is very very obviously much louder not just a smidge louder and barely reliably perceptible,

With the Aeon on the Gryphon I could listen to them at absolutely maximum volume for a period, not necessarily comfortably but listenable for a few seconds or so. From the Diablo I could not listen at maximum volume for even a moment, they are unbearably loud like hearing damage would be seconds away.

The same holds true for 300 ohm HD600 and my perception of maximum volume difference would align with your indicated voltage difference. Not literally proportional to the voltage obviously but very much louder from the Diablo as would be expected.

My only logical conclusion based only on my perception of relative volume and your theoretical analysis is that the Gryphon is also wildly overstated in terms of maximum power output,

What am I missing ?

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

I don’t know where the difference comes from and I can’t argue your maths but I do know that into a 13 ohm load of a Dan Clark Aeon out of balanced or single ended the Diablo can achieve a perceived volume far in excess of the Gryphon

What is the volume and gain setting on Gryphon?

Another factor here is the difference between "continuous" power (aka "RMS") and "Peak"/"Music"/"Impulse"/"Dynamic"/"Programme" power. And there are more possible standards than standard bodies, due to some extinct ones showing up.

Goldensound showed that at 4.5W with 32Ohm a 1kHz signal can be reproduced without clipping for 4 cycles, or 4mS, before clipping starts and available power progressively reduces.

The Diablo can likely can produce even higher peaks with a shorter duration. Music is not a sinewave. it looks like this:

As long the amplifier is able not start to clip for the duration of the highest peak AND can support the "Average RMS" indefinitely, the actual acoustic output from the attached transducer will be the same as of an Amplifier with an RMS output equal to 1/2 the peak (a 100W RMS Amplifier produces AT LEAST 200W Peak).

The original Diablo design accounts for this, the power supply is current limited and will progressively collapse the power supply voltage until an equilibrium is reached between current demand and available power (depends on battery state and external power supply if used).

If running a "nominal" 3.7V battery at 50% charge state, and having the the power supply switching at the nominal 3.8A peak current with 90% duty cycle (the the limit where the supply throttles down), we can supply around 7W to the two amplifier channels, which at 70% efficiency gives around 5W across two channels or 2.5W per Channel, continous, which squares well with Goldensounds Measurements.

Diablo can produce a lot of voltage into high impedance headphones and can produce the same voltage for short Bursts into low impedance's, there the power supplies peak current capabilities and the charge stored in the power supply capacitors support the power supply voltage for short peaks.

So peaks in music sufficiently short, can pass undistorted. Here a typical.musical instrument note:

This is a piano, but most percussion etc. looks similar too, even a plucked acoustic guitar does. We can see that the intial transient raps up and peaks and then the signal falls of.

This means if the "holdup" of the power supply bridges the initial transient which exceeds continuously available power by a lot, power demand will fall off rapidly and the limited holdup will suffice for the signal to pass undistorted.

The AES Standard AES2-2012 attempted to solve this in 2012 for speakers and looked at actual music:

As a result AES2-2012 recommends a power rating based on testing with pink noise, bandwidth limited according to speaker requirements and a 12dB Peak to average ratio. No minimum peak duration is stated.

As a result a speaker that was rated 200W RMS under a traditional standards (say a 15" Electrovoice EVM15L rated 200W RMS and 400W "Program") would actually be rated 3,200W AES2-2012, as 12dB is 16 times the power.

So an Amplifier delivering 3,200 W ito 8 Ohm would be usable with this speaker as long as:

1) the thermal (RMS) Power is not greater than 200W
2) The safe cone excursion is not exceeded

I would suggest that making an Amplifier that drives 3200W RMS into 8 Ohm to drive a 200W Speaker makes no sense, so as next step we should re-rate amplifiers using a similar scheme.

With the Aeon on the Gryphon I could listen to them at absolutely maximum volume for a period, not necessarily comfortably but listenable for a few seconds or so. From the Diablo I could not listen at maximum volume for even a moment, they are unbearably loud like hearing damage would be seconds away.

The Gryphon has no excess gain.

This means with the volume maxed out, gain maxed and Bass-Boost off any full scale digital signal will drive the Amplifier to the onset of clipping with 50Ohm or higher impedance headphones.

The Diablo has a shedload of excess gain. Full gain to balanced in turbo is 30dB. This means a full scale signal will attempt to drive the amplifier output to 63.2V, but the output clips at 20V

If you turn the volume to maximum you are overdriving the amplifier severely, with as much 10dB over clipping power.

This is why I wrote that volume control position is not meaningful in relation to output power, only to gain. Having the volume control at (say) 50% doesn't mean you are at 50% power and turning it up to the limit is not equal to 100%.

As said, with Diablo on Turbo turned up all the way, it's equal to to 1000% maximum power, where only 100% can be delivered.

My only logical conclusion based only on my perception of relative volume and your theoretical analysis is that the Gryphon is also wildly overstated in terms of maximum power output,

Excess gain on Diablo and the ability that the Diablo can probably produce a single 20V peak into 32 Ohm for a fraction of mS (which is 12.5W!) which may be enough to allow music to pass subjectively undistorted, while having "transient" power levels much greater than "continuous".

It would be equal in this specific case to an amplifier traditionally rated as 6.25W continuous with music, but without being able to deliver 6.25W continuously

The absence of an equivalent of AES2-2012 (which covers speakers only) for Amplifiers means we are lacking a valid and reality based standard to quantify this "dynamic power" behaviour of Amplifiers.

It is basically the illustration that in theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.

However, in absence of different standards, a manufacturer should always state technical data in accordance with established and standardised best practice (even if the numbers may look less impressive) and if using non-standard procedures to quantify for example the ability of an Amplifier to "overperform" with music, the test procedure should be disclosed and justified, referencing relevant literature.

Thor

 

[iFi audio]

Thanks again, Thorsten ! Now I/ we are just waiting for ifi to tell us what is what here. I am waiting for your reply, @iFi audio

I will be asking tomorrow what the situation is here with the Elite, and I will get back to you in the appropriate thread.

Thanks again for all the other comments from the measurement/honesty perspective. I am also passing all these along and hopefully will have more information for you guys.

A note from me...

I am no measurement guru, nor do I even want to pretend to be, but rest assured I am reading all these comments, and I can direct those above me to read them and provide direction and also to give answers and comments where possible.

Cheers!!

 

[BS5711]

Thor,

In layman’s terms is the Diablo more powerful into 13 ohms than the Gryphon, it most certainly seems in practice to be substantially more powerful.

Sorry I couldn’t decipher a direct answer in your reply above, excuse my ignorance !

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

In layman’s terms is the Diablo more powerful into 13 ohms than the Gryphon,

A little more power.

it most certainly seems in practice to be substantially more powerful.

It is not. Different gain structure means that if you turn up the volume to maximum you are heavily overdriving the Amplifier on the Diablo. On the Gryphon maxing out the volume just puts you at limit of the amp.

Sorry I couldn’t decipher a direct answer in your reply above, excuse my ignorance !

The direct answer is, because you are mistaking volume control position for power indication, you have it appear the Diablo is much more powerful when in reality it simply has much higher gain.

Thor

 

[iFi audio]

Shout out to Audio 46 for sharing their thoughts on the new Diablo 2!



Cheers!!

 

[801evan]

Shout out to Audio 46 for sharing their thoughts on the new Diablo 2!



Cheers!!

Does the diablo 2 (and also ifi idsd signature finale) have mqa toslink in?

 

[Ferdinando1968]

Does the diablo 2 (and also ifi idsd signature finale) have mqa toslink in?

The Diablo2 yes.

I am told that indeed it does have this ability!

Thanks for asking.

Cheers!!

Bubba

 

[iFi audio]

Does the diablo 2 (and also ifi idsd signature finale) have mqa toslink in?

As @Ferdinando1968 said yes it does, I would have to inquire about the Finale and post back when I get confirmation either way.

Cheers!!