Can the burn-in skeptics leave us alone?
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kingpage

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I also have a categorical dislike of people passing off as a patently obvious fact - something which is not (it builds a community tolerance for BS, which can in turn, allow the snake oil to sneak in under the same guise). But that's my own hangup. :D

Even if that was true, it still wouldn't be as bad as "amps are day and night different" which is how more than just a few people describe them here. I would argue the differences in headphones are day and night bigger than those in amps and that the differences due to burn-in still overshadow the differences in amps.
 
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post-7890327
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Nom de Plume

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If I ask the community where I could find Beats for a cheap price, I imagine many will attempt to inform me of Beats' dismal price:performance ratio. Such warnings are entirely relevant, and they're constructive in informing me should I have been ignorant of this ratio. Likewise, posts that reason burn-in will provide incremental, if any, changes are relevant and constructive.
Or are you urging me to tell you the deities, Apate and Dolos, will bless your headphones with preposterously better sound quality if you put your headphones in your drawer and continue to play music for five days? 

P.S. I only used such a distasteful analogy because it's easily understood in this community.
 
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In the several threads that I have come across, they are just asking for advice as to how to burn-in.
 
 
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kingpage

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First of all, the general opinion on Beats is not as divided as burn-in.
 
Second of all, given many people think Beats is quite good as long as the price is lower, it would be wrong to "inform person of Beats' dismal price:performance ratio" solely because in your example, you clearly are looking for Beats for a cheap price (if such a thing exists).
 
If the person really wants the looks/sound/design/popularity of Beats and asks for information about where to buy them cheap (analogous to someone who really wants to burn-in and asks for methods or ways of doing it), it would be very much irrelevant to give any answers that are other than where to buy them cheap and methods or ways of burn-in.
 
The central idea was on irrelavance and off-topic remarks. Hardly anybody really understood it. I have nothing against your personal belief (as long as it is not about killing or harming another person); it does not concern me whehter you believe in burn-in or not.
 
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Nom de Plume

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You're really grabbing at straws to find differences that you believe compromise the analogy.
 
1. Whether the opinion of Beats in these forums is similar to that of burn-in has no impact here. 
 
2. Did you not once think to extend this logic to other headphones? Consider the Studios and the AH-D2000. MSRP for either: 350USD. If you find the Studios for 200USD, would you say the price:performance ratio suddenly changes? Since you suggests it does, suppose you find the D2000 for 200USD. As a result, the Studios' ratio remains at a dismal level, the large discount notwithstanding. Bear this in mind; price:performance ratio also accounts for the performance of other headphones available in that range. 
 
3. Your idea of relevance is clearly too rigid.
A: "What protocols should I follow during burn-in?"
B: "There are no protocols you should follow since burn-in is a myth."
Person B manifestly answered Person A's question (therein implying B's response was entirely relevant). Disclaimer: I believe burn-in could affect the sound incrementally. This dialogue does not reflect my views of burn-in.
 
I've said what I wanted to say; expect no further replies.
 
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post-7890582
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kingpage

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If someone wants to know how to build a Windows PC for a specific purpose, is it relevant to answer him/her with "There are no best Windows PC you can build since Mac is better"?
 
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post-7890610
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Redcarmoose

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Burn-In is an important issue if the results were to convince a person to keep and eventually love a set of headphones. New members to Head-Fi can learn from what some believe to be a big deal. I feel that some headphones respond better than others to burn in. I really don't think the difference would be to an extreme of liking or not liking a particular headphone. The big change is rather in the listeners mind as our perception and musical information gathering is much more adaptive than people give it credit for. 
 
 
After a week some listeners adapt to the sound of a new signature as the mind adapts perception to the presentation. We like to think that this is minimal but the effects are far more dramatic than we give the factor credit for. New members can learn from an understanding of possible burn-in and adaptation both being factors contributing to understanding of headphone preference, for or against.
 
 
I had 300 hrs on my K701s and felt the bass became a little more pronounced. I purchased a second pair which were used with 150 hrs on them. I could not hear a difference between the two sets of headphones. Maybe the second pair had more than 150 hrs on them or maybe it was manufacturing changes. 
 
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yifu

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Burn-in is real with all mechanical components, just like all car manufacturers recommend no sudden acceleration/deceleration for the first 300km, headphone drivers require time to loosen up to acheive the best performance.
 
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swbf2cheater

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^ More so a diaphragm issue in my opinion.  It isn't much different from what some humans experience as they age from a young man to a senior.  The guy and the diaphragm both start out stiff and then as they age they start to lose their libido :p  In the case of audio products, the loss of an erection is a good thing lol :O
 
 
 
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liamstrain

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Quote:
I had 300 hrs on my K701s and felt the bass became a little more pronounced. I purchased a second pair which were used with 150 hrs on them. I could not hear a difference between the two sets of headphones. Maybe the second pair had more than 150 hrs on them or maybe it was manufacturing changes. 


Those are two of the possibilities... but not the only ones. And maybe not even the most likely ones. 
 
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post-7891137
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jcx

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Quote:
Burn-in is real with all mechanical components, just like all car manufacturers recommend no sudden acceleration/deceleration for the first 300km, headphone drivers require time to loosen up to acheive the best performance.


one of the flaws with this is the assumption is that the performance has to "improve" - what is the logical justification? - shouldn't some changes with use be worse?
 
stress relief of slightly non-uniform material could easily decenter, tip the voice coil in the magnet gap - so some drivers could end up with worse nonlinearity after the surround "settles in"
 
 
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post-7891197
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kingpage

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The shoe example shows it only gets better over time, until the shoes get torn apart. It shouldn't be hard to imagine headphones getting better over time until they break. Notably, few people would say it's ALL in the mind when the shoes get more comfortable after a week. Maybe both, but definitely physicially changed.
 
Of course, poorly designed drivers can get too loose, just as poorly made shoe can be loose-fitting after a while.
 
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post-7891208
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liamstrain

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To continue your shoe metaphor - it may get more comfortable over time - but not necessarily better. It is also losing arch support, and the soles are wearing thinner, etc. Not all the changes are good. 
 
This kind of physical wear we can measure clearly. So we should be able to do the same for headphones yes? Do so, and you won't have so many skeptics knocking at your door poking holes in your analogies (which you seem to think equate to evidence). 
 
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kingpage

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A good material will stabilise or converge to an asymptotic state, if you will, whether for headphones drivers or shoe or anything else. That's what engeneers look for. My laptop computer is working as fast as it was 6 years ago, when freshly formatted and reinstalled. That's due to stability in the components in the CPU, motherboad and so forth. Same is also true for LCD screen and batteries. They all stabilise unless they are dead or malfunction for some strang reason.
 
How many research papers have you seen or read that pertain to the idea of testing specifically shoe wear over time, to make you say that? I guess none or not many. Maybe the material used but not a study on shoes in particular. Same goes for headphones. You can do the first break-through.
 
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post-7891263
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liamstrain

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With electronics, I'm inclined to agree (regarding engineering decisions - they should provide that timeframe for the consumer if it is designed with such a timeframe/performance as the desired spec). With shoes, I'm not. That kind of physical wear is progressive and does not stabilize (e.g. you can wear through the soles due to friction/abrasion). Shoe designers must strike a materials balance between comfort and durability. Those will trend towards a middle point over the short term, but durability fails with use (how much time and what type of use are the variables). Bad analogy. 
 
I have no time or interest in such a study. You're making a claim. Provide evidence to back it up. 
 
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