[Karlthehusky721]

I feel as if referring to all living things using one label might lead to difficulties when attempting to communicate. Imagine a trip to the zoo, it would put the poor tour guides out of business.
 
Anyways, this thread has been sidetracked enough. Apologies.

 

[roadcykler]

To answer the question, no, because there is no evidence. 
 
If you (generally) notice, burn-in always improves the sound. The law of averages would tell us that sooner or later the sound would get worse, yet it doesn't. 

 

[Russin]

Maybe I'm crazy, but shouldn't this be clearly empirically measurable by an enterprising audiophile?
 
Pre-define some listening parameters. Make measurements. "Burn in." Measure again.
 
Has truly no one tried this? It may not be definitive, but seems like an easy enough start.

 

[Mr Rick]

  Maybe I'm crazy, but shouldn't this be clearly empirically measurable by an enterprising audiophile?
 
Pre-define some listening parameters. Make measurements. "Burn in." Measure again.
 
Has truly no one tried this? It may not be definitive, but seems like an easy enough start.

 
Tyll has several times, using his equipment. 
 
See my sig.

 

[spruce music]

 
Here it is screen 'burn in'.  Incontrovertible. 

 

[Niouke]

I had this thougt this morning while noticing that my IEM's had more bass than when I bought them
 
The components used to build our toys are not perfect and are part of a mechanism, and over time their mechanical properties HAVE to change. Consider a metallic spring, if you keep compressing it, it will require less force to compress it after some time. Actually springs used in cars and other machines have to be "burned in" to obtain the targeted mechanical properties, and it is done at the factory.
 
The mechanical properties of materials change over use time, but does that change the sound noticeably? That's another debate.

 

[pureangus62]

Personally, I don't think that burn in has any effect on sound quality. Warm up on the other hand can definitely have an effect on certain equipment.

 

[Niouke]

  Warm up on the other hand can definitely have an effect on certain equipment.

 
Temperature usually changes the mechanical properties of parts so that is possible.

 

[castleofargh]

  I had this thougt this morning while noticing that my IEM's had more bass than when I bought them
 
The components used to build our toys are not perfect and are part of a mechanism, and over time their mechanical properties HAVE to change. Consider a metallic spring, if you keep compressing it, it will require less force to compress it after some time. Actually springs used in cars and other machines have to be "burned in" to obtain the targeted mechanical properties, and it is done at the factory.
 
The mechanical properties of materials change over use time, but does that change the sound noticeably? That's another debate.

also consider that any given change in the way you insert your IEM will very significantly alter the sound. that you honestly have no way of being sure you placed them the same way last time. 
that you probably don't know for sure if the loudness setting was the same which also drastically alters our perception of bass.
that you're a human being with ALL it implies about the accuracy of your senses and your memories of the sound, your hearing, mood, the influence of preconceptions, the quantity of ear wax today, how tired you are ...
 
then when all that is factored, if you really still believe that you without any other controls or measurements, are a reliable enough tool to judge if the IEM sound changed, well the logical conclusion is that you have way too much self confidence.

 
of course what you say could be part of the cause. but before looking for a cause to the effect, you need to make sure there really was an effect. and if there was one like an increase in bass, that it was caused by the IEM and not yourself.  then and only then, it becomes relevant to try and find out what in the IEM could be responsible.

 

[Niouke]

Note that I was "joking" about the bass . I have noticed that sometimes my ear canals are smaller (could have to do with blood pressure) and the sound is distorded accordingly.
 
I agree that the human perception is prone to errors but that with sufficient training you can have certitudes about your perception. I mean precision athletes like bowmen or even gamers achieve insane precision without tools to mesure them all the time, or people copying paintings don't use colorimetric probes at all times, so why shouldn't I be able to notice that my IEM's have slightly more bass than before over a range of situations?
 
I'm not saying the OP is wrong and I would love to see proof one way or another.

 

[ranfan]

With reference to the test by innerfidelity. http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/evidence-headphone-break
And with the understanding that by 'burn in' you mean, a change in reproduction of sound by an earphone after some time (for better or worse).

As has been proven by the test, the changes are small and inconsistent. The changes were not even certain to be caused by driver 'burn in'. Due to many factors and condition, as when, where and how the users listen. I think many people who admit that 'burn in' is true, after experience. Have most their perception influenced by these. Not to mention, the fallible nature of our memory.
 
And so, in order for someone to give an evidence whether or not 'burn in' is real, he must first be able to eliminate those factors. Even the smallest movement of the testing device, or change in testing environment that may influence the sound. And really, test the device isolatedly to see whether the reproduction of sound by its sound producing component changes. Which I guess, would be very small. Not significant enough
-
An observation for headphones. The longer a user wears a foamed pair of headphones. The less elastic and more pressed the foam/pads become. This ongoing process of compression, logically will cause the foams to decrease in volume, shortening the distance between the sound drivers to the ears. Therefore increasing the loudness and influencing the character of the sound.
-
Another observation/argument. Given a case, where a patient suffering from hearing loss at a certain frequency. Came to an audiologist clinic. The audiologist then prescribes a hearing aid device to boost the sound frequency where lacking/necessary. If for example, the theory of 'burn in' is real. And the change caused by it is significant/very noticeable. Then the patient would have to repair his hearing aid device again after some time. In order to readjust the frequency boost where it is truly needed. This would be impractical for both the patient and the audiologist.

 

[castleofargh]

  Note that I was "joking" about the bass . I have noticed that sometimes my ear canals are smaller (could have to do with blood pressure) and the sound is distorded accordingly.
 
I agree that the human perception is prone to errors but that with sufficient training you can have certitudes about your perception. I mean precision athletes like bowmen or even gamers achieve insane precision without tools to mesure them all the time, or people copying paintings don't use colorimetric probes at all times, so why shouldn't I be able to notice that my IEM's have slightly more bass than before over a range of situations?
 
I'm not saying the OP is wrong and I would love to see proof one way or another.

sure training is a valuable tool to improve accuracy. but do we really train when we are passive listeners enjoying music? I learned more about listening while playing with EQ and trying to find spikes and dips for 2 months, than in all my life of enjoying music before that.
but even with training, sighted listening over a long period of time involves too many flaws to be considered. measurement is how we should verify a change in sound over time.

 

[sarge7359]

ty ranfan for finally commenting on the article that has some measurements!
 
However small the measurements showed the changes to be (and maybe the manufacturer sent already burned in headphones as the sample, let's assume they didn't) there were still changes.  Do we have measurements on what the limit of a trained listener can detect before we toss the findings of measured change aside as non-detectable to a trained listener?
 
The example of the listening device is, imho, also not proof that burn-in is pointless -- some devices are designed to not need burn in while others are.  The idea that burn in must cause continuous changes over time isn't even the hypothesis here.  The idea that burn in causes the device to better show its true colors is the hypothesis.  And it could be you just want burn-in so a device that does have a weak component will break within the warranty period. 

 
Are we tossing a mass of people's perceptions aside because we haven't bothered to measure properly?
 
I've found burn-in changed one set of headphones while it didn't change multiple sets of speakers, headphones, or IEMs I've owned -- surprised me on the one set that did change.  However that same set of headphones also had a sticky driver even after the burn-in period; the right speaker would slowly have less decibels then stop emitting sound altogether sometimes, but giving it a huge amount of volume would make the speaker come alive again for a time.  Eventually that right driver worked 100% of the time -- was that burn-in?  It was definitely a mechanical issue. 
 
Is that one example, anecdotal as it is, enough to say that sometimes burn-in helps?  And maybe it is even recommended just to get the 'dust' out?

 

[castleofargh]

  ty ranfan for finally commenting on the article that has some measurements!
 
However small the measurements showed the changes to be (and maybe the manufacturer sent already burned in headphones as the sample, let's assume they didn't) there were still changes.  Do we have measurements on what the limit of a trained listener can detect before we toss the findings of measured change aside as non-detectable to a trained listener?
 
The example of the listening device is, imho, also not proof that burn-in is pointless -- some devices are designed to not need burn in while others are.  The idea that burn in must cause continuous changes over time isn't even the hypothesis here.  The idea that burn in causes the device to better show its true colors is the hypothesis.  And it could be you just want burn-in so a device that does have a weak component will break within the warranty period. 

 
Are we tossing a mass of people's perceptions aside because we haven't bothered to measure properly?
 
I've found burn-in changed one set of headphones while it didn't change multiple sets of speakers, headphones, or IEMs I've owned -- surprised me on the one set that did change.  However that same set of headphones also had a sticky driver even after the burn-in period; the right speaker would slowly have less decibels then stop emitting sound altogether sometimes, but giving it a huge amount of volume would make the speaker come alive again for a time.  Eventually that right driver worked 100% of the time -- was that burn-in?  It was definitely a mechanical issue. 
 
Is that one example, anecdotal as it is, enough to say that sometimes burn-in helps?  And maybe it is even recommended just to get the 'dust' out?

 subjective impressions over time do not validate or invalidate change in objective fidelity, which is what burn in is allegedly changing if it changes the sound. so absolutely, toss aside my good sir. if you wish for me to care about someone's impressions on burn in, he'd have first to demonstrate to me that his memory is almost perfect, and that his senses don't fail him.

 

[DarkZenith]

  Maybe I'm crazy, but shouldn't this be clearly empirically measurable by an enterprising audiophile?
 
Pre-define some listening parameters. Make measurements. "Burn in." Measure again.
 
Has truly no one tried this? It may not be definitive, but seems like an easy enough start.

http://rinchoi.blogspot.fr/2012/04/effect-of-break-in-sony-mdr-ex1000.html
http://rinchoi.blogspot.fr/2012/04/introduction-it-is-generally-known-that.html
http://rinchoi.blogspot.fr/2013/01/the-effect-of-break-in-vsonic-vc02.html
http://rinchoi.blogspot.fr/2014/02/the-effect-of-break-in-creative-aurvana.html