[Niouke]

Thank you for debunking the silver/copper myth, I have notions in electronics but nearly fell to the hype.

 

[gregorio]

I have worked in the pro audio industry for 20+ years and the debates over cable materials is hilarious... When I showed some arguments to a fellow engineer he almost crapped his pants with disbelief... Just wish we thought to start a boutique cable company years ago instead of working my ass off...
I get angry reading almost any random thread reading things that should not exist knowing what we know about physics and electronics...
Where do people get the confidence to believe their own BS or blindly regurgitate others falsities ???

 
I'm in the exact same boat, although on a different continent. I have the same background, find the same things hilarious and occasionally get angry for exactly the same reasons. Like you I've had long breaks from head-fi but I learnt many years ago not to mention audiophile arguments to colleagues/peers, except as part of a joke.
 
In answer to your question, it starts with some marketing BS, then it's supported by incentived/agenda'd reviewers, further supported by shills and finally corroborated by those biased by all this "supported" marketing. Typically they're totally convinced their perception and reality are the same thing and think that audio engineers throw up a couple of mics to capture reality then give the recording to a mastering engineer to screw up (to make it sound not real)! It's a kind of ignorance based circular illogic which is both hilarious and worrying. Not as worrying as seeing this approach start to dominate world politics though!
 
Anyway, stick around, even though we're visited by the occasional zealot, this forum is not so bad. There are times where it's not just about science or myth though, where practicalities and the art of audio engineering/production need to be understood/appreciated and sometimes I feel like almost a lone voice, so having contributions from a fellow long time commercial practitioner would be welcome!
 
G

 

[Pimmsley]

Thanks G... You are right, giving up is not as rewarding as seeing the light go off when someone you educate (when asked) makes a real connection when enlightened by knowledge based in solid fact and practical method.
I'm just hesitant to get 'in to it' when the zeolites get frisky...(no offence to anyone, passion is good)
..and fwiw we used to bank on the fact that NS-10's sound like NS-10's at near field in a decently treated space when cabled in phase and driven appropriately (crown etc...) regardless of cables, brand of power amp and any mechanical break-in... Well that and those pretty white drivers... Ha ha.. You get used to the sound of a room, certain monitors and ambient domains etc... but most of us still need test tracks we know and carry everywhere as a reference when adjusting to a new space before getting on with the job...We are trained or learn as engineers to be very sensitive to real changes in sound, mastering aims to present a highly translatable product when not interfered with by record company bozos...

I'm sounding way too serious for a Friday night

 

[ranfan]

Sorry for being slightly OOT. But I'd like to share my small findings.
 
So out of curiosity, I asked a thread about cables on this matter.
 

Spoiler: q

  Has anyone tried a blind test of cables with different materials? (e.g Copper, Silver, Hybrid, etc.) And guess the cable, from sound character.

I read this on the science forum, and was curious.

 
General responses were mostly subjective, but interesting for me.

 

[castleofargh]

click to appreciate jpg compression, and maybe read.
  

 

[sarge7359]

I was curious was NS10s were and found a lovely site with the following description: "They've got anything but a flat response, but the idea is that when you get a mix perfect on a pair of NS-10M's, that mix will be perfect everywhere."
 
HAHAHA.  I'm guessing those speakers are subjected to exotic materials very often but are great examples of what audio engineering is all about -- make it sound great everywhere. 

 

[ranfan]

 
Lately, I've been reading (as suggested by the Science sub-forum): yourlogicalfallacyis.com/
And was able to learn a lot from there.

 

[Pimmsley]

I was curious was NS10s were and found a lovely site with the following description: "They've got anything but a flat response, but the idea is that when you get a mix perfect on a pair of NS-10M's, that mix will be perfect everywhere."

HAHAHA.  I'm guessing those speakers are subjected to exotic materials very often but are great examples of what audio engineering is all about -- make it sound great everywhere. 

Spot on... The advice that passed to me was if you get a mix to sound good on the 10's it would sound good everywhere and you were more likely to get played (AirPlay)... Ghastly sounding little beasts with a shrill quality at the top and tweets prone to go pop when severely pushed (was not uncommon to see spare tweeters in waiting, in control rooms) ...and I was told to get used to it as they are everywhere you will work... Much has changed in years with near fields (they were already 'on the way out' by the late 90's) and the production process chain but the 10's are still about if even only for that classic studio look or a nod of respect to a classic workhorse monitor but rarely get switched in during a mix... Their time really has passed but many 1000's of tracks owe their time on the radio in part (all due respect to the artist and tune/piece) to that industry standard tool.
My humble apologies for my OT addition.

 

[gregorio]

  [1] I was curious was NS10s were and found a lovely site with the following description: "They've got anything but a flat response, but the idea is that when you get a mix perfect on a pair of NS-10M's, that mix will be perfect everywhere."
 
[2] HAHAHA.  I'm guessing those speakers are subjected to exotic materials very often but are great examples of what audio engineering is all about -- make it sound great everywhere. 

 
1. IMHO, there's a fair pinch of myth that statement. Certainly at one point in time they were pretty much ubiquitous in all the studios I worked at but personally I always hated the little white coned buggers!

There were many who swore by them but in my neck of the woods opinion was very much polarised.
 
2. Certainly that's what mastering is all about but for other engineers and producers I would say that it's a consideration but not the only one.
 
G

 

[MKnopfler]

  If by mermaid you're referring to the aquatic creature with the upper body of a female human and the tail of a fish, I'm terribly sorry to inform you that human lungs do not function underwater. I would advise you to limit your expectations in regard to the possibility of a future interaction with mermaids.

Dolphins and whales breathe air, so a mermaid could as well.

 

[Niouke]

I've been shopping for speakers recently, and people say there is "burn in" or "break in" on these too...

 

[pinnahertz]

On a more general note, I'll probably be leaving Head-fi soon, because I honestly cannot take reading any more ridiculous reviews, threads and posts where people, who presumably had some level of education in their life, talk about earphones sounding so much better after 50, 100, 200+ hours of "burn-in" or how their cable change "opened out soundstage dramatically" or burning in their solid state device "doubled the bass response".
Quite frankly, the level of common sense, allied to a basic understanding of science, seems to be so lacking in such a high proportion of people who frequent these forums that it is actually concerning for the future of audio as a whole.

You made some excellent points... And I feel the same way... I haven't been around for at least 5 years, came back for some research/advice and found what appears to be the worst of disinformation, conclusion jumping and just plain false advice...
The worst though is the almost religious behaviours of false idol worship and mob mentality leading to bullying and arrogance of stunning proportion...
I have worked in the pro audio industry for 20+ years and the debates over cable materials is hilarious...
<edit>
Reading your post and this section of the forum gives me some solice that all is not lost... but the main sections seem full of confused and very wrong absolutes..

As gregorio acknowledged, you guys aren't alone. It does get thick in here at times. Personally, I'm driven by the almost life-long quest for scientific truth in audio. I see no need to promulgate or tolerate mythology. Audio in general seems to be more highly saturated with mythology than most science-based fields, and I've never fully understood why. But it puts some of us on a mission, and a frustrating one at times. I try to keep in mind that some will cling to beliefs even when proven false, some will flat out declare science as inadequate or wrong, discounting the scientific method along the way, and throwing hard proof into the breeze. And, in the end, you can't save people from themselves, and have no business trying to do so. The mission, then, is to expose falsehood, and promote truth to those with a listening ear, often the silent lurkers, and underscore, often deepen our own understanding in doing so. Hopefully, there's entertainment value in reading folks like castleofargh and gregorio, and others, hammer the kinks and bends out of some understanding. If I contribute, fine.

Yes, many of us have had to take a break, myself for several years at one point, sometimes for just a few days. In the end, it's just a forum and there are so many more important things in life.

 

[VocaloidDude]

Has there been any empirical evidence yet, or just arguing?

 

[castleofargh]

if you put 10 cent in an air tight box in a safe at the bank, you'll still be able to measure changes over time with the most accurate tools available. so if any measurable change of any magnitude for any reason is supposed to be evidence of whatever the hell burn-in means, then sure we have evidence.

else it's all very device specific and aside from the manufacturer himself, I doubt anybody bothered with statistical anything under proper control.
for audiophile purpose, the pads being pressed for a few hours or being a few months old, make for more variations than anything else I've measured so far for driver only changes. this IMO has been measured enough by enough people for pads to be accepted as a cause(probably the main cause) for audible change over time on headphones. if someone wished to call that burn in, well... maybe "sweat in", or "press on" would be more appropriate.
the other well accepted idea is that feedback about hearing burn-in changes over time, are vastly exaggerated compared to actual changes, if any. but then again, that's how it is for all subjective feedbacks.

 

[Intensecure]

As gregorio acknowledged, you guys aren't alone. It does get thick in here at times. Personally, I'm driven by the almost life-long quest for scientific truth in audio. I see no need to promulgate or tolerate mythology. Audio in general seems to be more highly saturated with mythology than most science-based fields, and I've never fully understood why. But it puts some of us on a mission, and a frustrating one at times. I try to keep in mind that some will cling to beliefs even when proven false, some will flat out declare science as inadequate or wrong, discounting the scientific method along the way, and throwing hard proof into the breeze. And, in the end, you can't save people from themselves, and have no business trying to do so. The mission, then, is to expose falsehood, and promote truth to those with a listening ear, often the silent lurkers, and underscore, often deepen our own understanding in doing so. Hopefully, there's entertainment value in reading folks like castleofargh and gregorio, and others, hammer the kinks and bends out of some understanding. If I contribute, fine.

Yes, many of us have had to take a break, myself for several years at one point, sometimes for just a few days. In the end, it's just a forum and there are so many more important things in life.

Thanks for writing that. I actually banned myself "at user request" and took a little break, then thought...why not just sift through the trash, use the ignore button wisely, limit my exposure to corrosive thoughts (or worse, lack of thought) and enjoy the fewer, but more valuable, interactions with folks like you and castleofargh.
As you so rightly say, can't take it too seriously, can't "educate" those who don't wish to be, and certainly shouldn't be arrogant enough to think that you should.
Come in peace, leave in peace. And enjoy what sensible discourse there is, because it exists. Never drink the snake oil though, it's toxic!