[Wmcmanus]

I agree that we are not trying to alienate anyone. I sometimes send a PM to whomever started the last "Why can't I?" thread, but it really gets old at times. Most people respond by saying, "Thanks, I didn't know. Sorry. I wasn't trying to argue about it. I was just confused about why I couldn't..."

But then there are those who now have 2 things to argue about: 1) the "why can't I" thing and 2) the "why did you delete my thread asking why I can't?" thing. Not the way I want to spend my time every night with those sorts of PM exchanges.

The reason I allowed this thread to stay open is that it's actually a topic of interest to a lot of people. Whereas the other ones are all the same and once the question is asked and answered, they really don't have any further use. Unless, of course, more people want to jump in and give the same answer. Or alternatively (but usually in conjunction with jumping in to give the same tired answer) they then want to give their opinion about what the rule should be, how it should be implemented, when we should make exceptions, that we're lazy if we don't, and on and on.

All that such discussions do is to add further to the newbie's frustration about "Why can't I?" and add further to the old timer's frustration in terms of having to defend the rule over and over again. Then someone like bigguy gets frustrated, and trust me, you would not want to be anywhere near this man if he ever decided to unleash his frustration! I'd venture to say that bigguy is easily bigger than all but 1% of 1% of 1% of the world's population. About 1 in 10,000, if my math is right. I mean, he's reaaaaaaaly big!

 

[Mos3s]

I'm a noob ( post #12) and I can't post in the FS forums, but I am smart enough to PM sellers and ask questions as well as buy decent gear( I even have a feedback thread!! Woot!!). I don't post often because I don't have anything constructive to add or experience with other gear and to be honest, this place is a little intimidating. I made my first couple of posts and received very few responses and at that point decided to sit down, shut up and continue to lurk until I had something to say ...like now

 

[Wmcmanus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mos3s /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm a noob ( post #12) and I can't post in the FS forums, but I am smart enough to PM sellers and ask questions as well as buy decent gear( I even have a feedback thread!! Woot!!). I don't post often because I don't have anything constructive to add or experience with other gear and to be honest, this place is a little intimidating. I made my first couple of posts and received very few responses and at that point decided to sit down, shut up and continue to lurk until I had something to say ...like now

But I'm responding now. Does this make you feel better?

You shouldn't be buying stuff before you have 50 posts and 30 days of membership either. By doing so, you are still violating the rules. Granted, there is much less risk that a buyer will scam a seller, but it can happen, depending on how the transaction is arranged.

In any case, you shouldn't be bragging about how you get around the rules. I think this is the kind of example (even though we all know exists anyway) that proves that it would be better if we could make the Buy/Sell/Trade forums invisible until the requirements for posting in there have been met.

It's not like it's such a huge sacrifice that we're asking people to make, and in truth, it's a bit disheartening that people can't simply choose to respect the rules. If I wanted to be a harda@@ about it, I could actually make the case that what you've described is a rules violation that should result in at least a temporary ban.

Yet, that's not what it's all about, IMO. To me, it's more of a matter of our members understanding and agreeing to respect our few, basic, and well intentioned, rules and terms of use.

 

[Bigguy]

Welcome to head-Fi. Sorry about your wallet. Having nothing constructive to say never stopped me or countless others here.

Another rant I want to start is about people who post a question and get upset if they don't have a reply within an hour. Unfortunately this aint a full service forum. You get more in information and others experiences than you pay for around here. Some unbiased and some very biased. It's your job to weed that out or weigh the information and do your own research.

And Wayne, You aint no little guy either. Don't make me come down to the Cayman's. Actually, make me, make me!

 

[Mos3s]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus /img/forum/go_quote.gif But I'm responding now. Does this make you feel better? You shouldn't be buying stuff before you have 50 posts and 30 days of membership either. By doing so, you are still violating the rules. Granted, there is much less risk that a buyer will scam a seller, but it can happen, depending on how the transaction is arranged. In any case, you shouldn't be bragging about how you get around the rules. I think this is the kind of example (even though we all know exists anyway) that proves that it would be better if we could make the Buy/Sell/Trade forums invisible until the requirements for posting in there have been met. It's not like it's such a huge sacrifice that we're asking people to make, and in truth, it's a bit disheartening that people can't simply choose to respect the rules. If I wanted to be a harda@@ about it, I could actually make the case that what you've described is a rules violation that should result in at least a temporary ban. Yet, that's not what it's all about, IMO. To me, it's more of a matter of our members understanding and agreeing to respect our few, basic, and well intentioned, rules and terms of use.

Thank you for responding ( I'm not sure how you meant it )and yes it gave me warm fuzzies.

I'm may be new here at Head-fi, but I'm not new to forums or buying and selling online..I have an excellent reputation on ebay and that should count for something...right??

I did not know that buying before 30days/50 posts was against the rules nor was I attempting to "brag" about an unknown rule violation. My apologies. I respect the rules but I somehow missed that one and so did the sellers .

 

[tylernol]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tk3 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I find it strange too, since logically the first thing to do is to find out how the system works and what the rules are, especially when possibly big chunks of money is involved, as it often is with hi-fi gear. Maybe they are too rich to care?

Wow, this can be extrapolated to extreme lengths! That is the same way our society is (how the OP is explaining). We have some more at-home issues to work on... it's amazing to see stems of such a degree in a place such as a forum, head-fi, when you'd think that each person thinks for themselves and can do things for themselves... you realize how the (real) system works.

Watch the video in my signature.

Learn,
Tyler

 

[Tech2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus /img/forum/go_quote.gif ... You shouldn't be buying stuff before you have 50 posts and 30 days of membership either. By doing so, you are still violating the rules. Granted, there is much less risk that a buyer will scam a seller, but it can happen, depending on how the transaction is arranged. ...

Wow, I had no idea, really. I thought the rules were to protect regulars from 'drive-by' scammers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus /img/forum/go_quote.gif ... If I wanted to be a harda@@ about it, I could actually make the case that what you've described is a rules violation that should result in at least a temporary ban. ....

Could you then also honestly make a case for banning the established member that sold the stuff to a non-qualifying member?

I'm really not trying to be contrary or argumentative here, but it seems to me that it takes two to do the 'Head-Fi rule violation tango' with regard to this rule, as you have presented it.

 

[Wmcmanus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tech2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Could you then also honestly make a case for banning the established member that sold the stuff to a non-qualifying member? I'm really not trying to be contrary or argumentative here, but it seems to me that it takes two to do the 'Head-Fi rule violation tango' with regard to this rule, as you have presented it.

This is how I presented it:

Quote:

Yet, that's not what it's all about, IMO. To me, it's more of a matter of our members understanding and agreeing to respect our few, basic, and well intentioned, rules and terms of use.

So, I guess the answer is yes and no.

Yes, technically, if I wanted to get technical, which as you can see from the above that I don't, then yes, it may be possible to make the case that both parties involved have broken the rules in the scenario you've described.

But no, this is not how I see the spirit of the rule. The spirit of the rule, as I see it, is that a new member should refrain from buying or selling anything at Head-Fi until they have met the requirements for posting in the Buy/Sell/Trade forums.

I think that the primary risk is that some new members may sign up just to be scammers or spammers, and thus the "protective" aspect of the 50/30 rule is more to prevent new members from selling than it is to prevent them from buying.

At the same time, however, the underlying premise of the 50/30 rule is that Head-Fi is primarily a discussion forum and VERY secondarily a marketplace for active members to buy, sell and trade used gear. Thus, from this (I think important) perspective, the rule is written in such a way that a new member is not allowed to post in the Buy/Sell/Trade fourms, be he a potential seller or a potential buyer. By extension, a new member who has not met the 50/30 rule, should not be using the PM system to circumvent the rules either.

I can understand that you may not have understood this, but this is in fact the way the rules were designed to work. That being said, I don't think that what you did was so terribly "wrong" (and arguably not wrong at all given that you didn't understand the operation of the rule), but in addition to the "protection" aspect of the 50/30 rule there is intended to be a certain "privilege" aspect to the rule as well. In other words, unless and until you have met the requirements, you're not really invited into the club.

I think that the way around this (and to clear up any confusion that people may legitimately have) would be to have the system restrict access to the Buy/Sell/Trade sub forums until new members have met the requirements.

Again, it's not meant to be "mean" or as a form of "punishment", it just reflects an overall attitude that Head-Fi is not all about buying and selling; that's a secondary benefit for those folks who stick around for a while and choose to participate at least to some minimal level. This is very consistent with what other discussion forums have done, especially where the focus is not on the buying and selling of stuff, but instead is on whatever the board was created to discuss.

 

[Tech2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is how I presented it: So, I guess the answer is yes and no. Yes, technically, if I wanted to get technical, which as you can see from the above that I don't, then yes, it may be possible to make the case that both parties involved have broken the rules in the scenario you've described. But no, this is not how I see the spirit of the rule. The spirit of the rule, as I see it, is that a new member should refrain from buying or selling anything at Head-Fi until they have met the requirements for posting in the Buy/Sell/Trade forums. I think that the primary risk is that some new members may sign up just to be scammers or spammers, and thus the "protective" aspect of the 50/30 rule is more to prevent new members from selling than it is to prevent them from buying. At the same time, however, the underlying premise of the 50/30 rule is that Head-Fi is primarily a discussion forum and VERY secondarily a marketplace for active members to buy, sell and trade used gear. Thus, from this (I think important) perspective, the rule is written in such a way that a new member is not allowed to post in the Buy/Sell/Trade fourms, be he a potential seller or a potential buyer. By extension, a new member who has not met the 50/30 rule, should not be using the PM system to circumvent the rules either. I can understand that you may not have understood this, but this is in fact the way the rules were designed to work. That being said, I don't think that what you did was so terribly "wrong" (and arguably not wrong at all given that you didn't understand the operation of the rule), but in addition to the "protection" aspect of the 50/30 rule there is intended to be a certain "privilege" aspect to the rule as well. In other words, unless and until you have met the requirements, you're not really invited into the club. I think that the way around this (and to clear up any confusion that people may legitimately have) would be to have the system restrict access to the Buy/Sell/Trade sub forums until new members have met the requirements. Again, it's not meant to be "mean" or as a form of "punishment", it just reflects an overall attitude that Head-Fi is not all about buying and selling; that's a secondary benefit for those folks who stick around for a while and choose to participate at least to some minimal level. This is very consistent with what other discussion forums have done, especially where the focus is not on the buying and selling of stuff, but instead is on whatever the board was created to discuss.

Thanks for the reply and clarification.

I have no problem whatsoever with the rule, I was just unaware of any 'can't buy' stipulation. If that is the case, then I agree that the FS/FT forums should indeed be invisible to n00bs. Makes everyone's life easier.

And, BTW, I'm not the member that was 'bragging' about circumventing the rules, just a member looking for clarification.

 

[Wmcmanus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tech2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif And, BTW, I'm not the member that was 'bragging' about circumventing the rules, just a member looking for clarification.

Understood, and appreciated in terms of your willingness to accept the rule as intended. Also, the person who was "bragging" wasn't really bragging, I suspect. That may have been a poor word choice on my part. In fact, I don't think that anyone ought to take any of this all that seriously.

As it stands now, it's sort of a "gentleman's rule" that is enforced only by those who choose to respect it. Perhaps one day we can get the system to do the job for us, but that's in Jude's corner and I have no idea what it would involve. I suspect it would be easy, but I don't know.

 

[Elephas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mos3s /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't post often because I don't have anything constructive to add or experience with other gear and to be honest, this place is a little intimidating.

Head-Fi is intimidating?

I think you'll find that most members are friendly. Sure, there are some nasty ones who try to be intimidating whenever someone mentions the Sennheiser veil, but just ignore them!

Your posts look just as "big" as Bigguy's, and potentially just as intimidating to a baby elephant.