cables for HD600: Equinox, BlueDragon, Cardas, other?
Mar 23, 2005 at 1:57 AM Post #31 of 43
I'd agree with PhilS wholeheartedly- IMHO (and not that anyone cares what I think on the matter), however, this would mean that the issue of science is banned completely, and not "selectively banned" only when it shoots down a contention (there are a great many ideas around here (most, actually) that are firmly supported by science).

It's not my decision to make, though, and I'll abide by whatever the mods want, which I think Jude made clear.

Either way, I'll quit "polluting" the cable threads with talk of physics, proper testing, etc, if that's how it should be by the spirit of "DBT-Free".
 
Mar 23, 2005 at 2:15 AM Post #32 of 43
Quote:

Originally Posted by Darwin022
Wow, ok, I go to sleep and come back to this
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I guess I'll add "A UFO" and a "Debate" to my list of choices now...


I know this, I do like the way the 600s sound, It would be nice to have them at their full potential though. Thanks for your input guys.



You may see if there is a chance of going to a meet to hear different cables. Meet conditions are far from ideal conditions for critical listening but will at least give you a flavor of what each cable can do.

I like my HD600/Cardas combo but will admit that it is an acquired taste and it is not the most dynamic combo.

I'm currently looking for a cable for my HD650.
 
Mar 23, 2005 at 2:21 AM Post #33 of 43
Maybe just one gigantic thread on DBT would be appropriate.

Back on topic, I think I would consider factors like length, flexibility and connectors as most important when making my cable decision.
 
Mar 23, 2005 at 2:26 AM Post #34 of 43
thanks, yeah, I was planning on going to the DC/VA/MD meet this weekend, but it got changed to April 2nd and I can't make it. I was thinking of calling up Todd and e-mailing moon-audio to see if they had any demos of the different cables or if they would be fine with me auditioning and returning what I don't like.
 
Mar 23, 2005 at 4:28 AM Post #35 of 43
I listened to the Zu, Cardas and SD and went with the Equinox. Less colouration, richer sound, more musical and better priced!
 
Mar 23, 2005 at 11:04 AM Post #36 of 43
Quote:

Originally Posted by rodbac
You're still missing the point: who would be the "rationalist" here? The person whose beliefs are based on the evidence or the person who wants to ignore that evidence?


I don't get your point. What evidence in the context of UFOs? There's no proof that ETs have visited earth, but also no proof for the opposite.

Quote:

Incorrect - there is a mountain of evidence, and NONE of it is composed of anecdote from Head-Fiers. You fixed your own mistake with what follows your last comma.


Not only that. My own ears are proof enough for me. Evidence in your understanding is based on some failed blind test, right? But as in the case of UFOs, they don't proof anything. The most useful evidence in music reproduction is what a majority of experienced listeners hears. They're all aware of placebo effects, but they keep on believing what they hear. Add to this that cables usually show exactly the same sonic characteristic throughout their lifetime (apart from slight burn-in effects in the beginning).

Quote:

I'm not trying to argue this point back and forth, Jazz - I'm perfectly willing to let sleeping dogs lie and leave this issue alone until you try to pretend there is something we don't know about a 20KHz electrical signal going across 10 feet of copper.


You're implying that you know exactly what measurings are responsible for what sonic impression. But you aren't even able to respond to my amplifier example. Fact is that «we» know very little about the subtle sonic differences caused by electronics and cables -- they seem to be out of reach of science so far.

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Mar 23, 2005 at 11:10 AM Post #37 of 43
Quote:

Originally Posted by utep10
I'm currently looking for a cable for my HD650.


HD 600 and HD 650 need different cables. My favorites for the HD 650 are Zu Mobius, Headphile Silver and Silver Dragon. But that's in my setup, and I haven't heard the other popular cables.

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Mar 23, 2005 at 2:12 PM Post #38 of 43
Quote:

I don't get your point. What evidence in the context of UFOs? There's no proof that ETs have visited earth, but also no proof for the opposite.


The "evidence" we have in favor of UFOs, as I said, is that we know two things: intelligent, space-faring life exists on a planet in at least one star system in this universe (that's us), and there are hundreds of billions of trillions of stars.

The scientific method is what tells you it's reasonable to remain open to the possibility of their existence AND that it's unlikely they have visited earth.

Quote:

My own ears are proof enough for me.


Enough said. If you're willing to turn a deaf ear to the things that have been shown to explain what you're reporting, and instead want to believe something else entirely unsupported by valid evidence, so be it. It's just tough for others to rely on your "proof" is all.

Quote:

The most useful evidence in music reproduction is what a majority of experienced listeners hears. They're all aware of placebo effects, but they keep on believing what they hear.


*Sigh* Jazz, "experienced listeners" will report a difference where none exists (listening to the same equipment) exactly as aften, on average, as they'll report no difference when the equipment changes (well, things like cables and rainbow stickers anyway), and exactly as often as they'll guess right.

So if you're trying to decide what sounds best to you, you're right- what you hear is useful "evidence".

In deciding, however, whether one strand of copper sounds different, let alone better, than another, your ears are notoriously unreliable, and this is precisely why DBTs have been a staple of valid testing for things like this for years and years. It's not something that was pulled out of someone's arse as a prank.

Quote:

You're implying that you know exactly what measurings are responsible for what sonic impression. But you aren't even able to respond to my amplifier example. Fact is that «we» know very little about the subtle sonic differences caused by electronics and cables -- they seem to be out of reach of science so far.


You've coupled a 'strawman' argument with a 'red herring' here.

I've never said anything about which sonic differences are caused by which measurements, and I'm not discussing a complex array of ciruitry like a typical amplifier.

I can tell you, though, that if an identical signal is fed into a pair of phones over two different wires, you're not going to be able to tell a difference between the two wires (or amplifiers). You may think you hear a difference based on some very well documented phenomena, but you'll fail an ABX test on it.

Quote:

Fact is that «we» know very little about the subtle sonic differences caused by electronics and cables -- they seem to be out of reach of science so far.


On what are you basing that? As I've stated, there is nothing yet reported that we don't understand to a degree of accuracy far beyond what's necessary for a stupid 20KHz signal.
 
Mar 23, 2005 at 3:33 PM Post #39 of 43
Quote:

Originally Posted by rodbac
The "evidence" we have in favor of UFOs, as I said, is that we know two things: intelligent, space-faring life exists on a planet in at least one star system in this universe (that's us), and there are hundreds of billions of trillions of stars.

The scientific method is what tells you it's reasonable to remain open to the possibility of their existence AND that it's unlikely they have visited earth.



And what does it tell us about UFO fanatics and anti-UFO fanatics? In my perspective, that both are fanatics.

Quote:

Enough said. If you're willing to turn a deaf ear to the things that have been shown to explain what you're reporting, and instead want to believe something else entirely unsupported by valid evidence, so be it. It's just tough for others to rely on your "proof" is all.


Yes, there's no proof from my part and I can't claim credibility, but there's also no proof from your part, instead there's a lot of belief. After all I can report to have heard the things I claim. Yes, I do believe my ears, but that's my only «belief», in contrast to your ideologic approach. And I don't think it's that hard for other people to reproduce my experience.

Quote:

*Sigh* Jazz, "experienced listeners" will report a difference where none exists (listening to the same equipment) exactly as often, on average, as they'll report no difference when the equipment changes (well, things like cables and rainbow stickers anyway), and exactly as often as they'll guess right.


I know you're talking of blind tests, right? I agree that they are not as easy to absolve as many audiophiles think. There's a difference in not having an anchor point to fix one's listening impression on (not to know if A or B is playing). I have absolved a blind test with headphone cables, and it was harder than I thought, after all I had 9 right guesses out of 12, and I didn't feel really comfortable with that. But it doesn't change my perspective and my readiness to rely on my listening impressions under real-life conditions. Instead I'm very skeptic against blind tests in general. I think they absolutely falsify the results by introducing laboratory conditions.

Quote:

You've coupled a 'strawman' argument with a 'red herring' here.

I've never said anything about which sonic differences are caused by which measurements, and I'm not discussing a complex array of ciruitry like a typical amplifier.


I see, you refuse to take position on this decisive point. On the one hand you keep on preaching that everything in audio is known and documented, on the other hand you can't offer any hint as to what measuring criteria make amplifiers sound different. Complex array or not doesn't matter at all, the only thing that matters is that we get significantly different sonic results from electronic devices with virtually the same measuring data. I for one am quite optimistic that if once this mystery is solved (who knows), the solution can also be applied to cables.

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Mar 23, 2005 at 4:06 PM Post #40 of 43
Well, I think I'm going to order the Equinox from Todd... I've seen enough "well, these are great, but I like my Equinox more" and "I'm selling my Blue Dragon because my equinox got here" from what I've been hearing, it's more of what I want anyway as far as sound...
 
Mar 23, 2005 at 8:18 PM Post #41 of 43
Quote:

Originally Posted by rodbac
The "evidence" we have in favor of UFOs, as I said, is that we know two things: intelligent, space-faring life exists on a planet in at least one star system in this universe (that's us), and there are hundreds of billions of trillions of stars.

The scientific method is what tells you it's reasonable to remain open to the possibility of their existence AND that it's unlikely they have visited earth.



That is extremely narrow minded thinking. You don't count EYEWITNESS experiences at all! They don't matter, which is utter bs. If there is a murder case, eyewitnesses matter a lot. But if it's cable differences they don't. Why not?

I mean the difference with the oehlbach and the stock cable was absolutely HUGE. It was not some small "hmm, maybe there is something", but it was concrete as in -> way more bass.

I mean, you probably believe that there is a difference between a 192kbps mp3 and a cd right? Because it's "proven". Well guess what. That difference between them wasn't nearly as big as changing the damn cable. Can you explain that to me?
 
Mar 23, 2005 at 9:10 PM Post #42 of 43
Quote:

Originally Posted by EdipisReks
what are the rated impedances of the cables?


I'll repeat this question and add capacitance and inductance
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I don't think it's reasonable to argue that the cables make no difference and assume that the basic electrical properties of all the cables are the same. Someone must have measured the popular cables? With the data of the cables, the intended headphones and a typical amplifier one could simply run a simulation to possibly discover a scientifically valid explanation for the claimed differences. For instance, added resistance in the cable could account for increased bass with a cable (HD600 has a large bump in impedance in the 80-100Hz region, quite usual for headphones).
 
Mar 23, 2005 at 9:23 PM Post #43 of 43
Quote:

Originally Posted by breez
I'll repeat this question and add capacitance and inductance
smily_headphones1.gif



Forget about it!

I've measured some of the cables and found marginal differences in capacitance and resistance (couldn't exactly measure inductance with my LCR meter, but it looked the same) which didn't coincide with the sonic characteristics anyway. The perceived sonic differences aren't measurable with those classical parameters. That's it.

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