[castleofargh]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia
all the deal about cables is IMO explained in that wiki link.
 
-some people will think they heard a difference when nothing changed, placebo is what it is. people rejecting it are delusioned. I don't even see the point of discussing it, it's a fact and is demonstrated all the time in everything a human does. 
 so I expect those testimonies to be removed from the equation.
 
-some will notice differences that are nothing more than a volume lever change. a simple impedance change in the cable could be responsible and could lead people listening to the cables to notice differences, but perceive the differences as better bass, better soundstage ... instead of "louder music".
obviously those should also be removed from the equation if we really want to ascertain audio differences that are more than pushing the sound to 11. volume matching is step one of audio testing if it wasn't done, the result is meaningless.
 
-then there are the countless cases of people who tried different cables with multidriver IEMs and there was a difference, I still don't expect them to have volume matched the cables or used a system with an instant switch so their opinion is meaningless for our search. but we could accept that they at least really heard a difference, because the impedance change in the cable made for a frequency response change due to the crossovers in the IEM. we would need a case by case look to tell if we should expect changes to be audible or not with specific cables and specific IEMs, but at least that's possible and can be explained easily. so we're out of the placebo universe at long last!!!!!!!! \o/ woot!!!!!
still the one changing sound is more the IEM than the cable, in the sense that a flat impedance over frequencies 300ohm headphone wouldn't exhibit those changes. so it's not the cable, but the cable acting on the IEM and that should stay clear in the head of people.
but of course as most audiophiles don't understand the impact of source impedance on widely changing impedance IEMs, when they experience a change, they will blame the cable for the change. that's where my apophenia stuff kicks in once more. the guy doesn't have enough information on what's happening, but it doesn't stop him from making conclusion based on 1 weird very circumstantial experience that will lead him to say idiotic stuff like "silver cable open the trebles, improve the soundstage...". when in fact all of his experience is one cable on one IEM and I can get him another IEM where the same cable actually roll off the trebles. but of course he doesn't know that, and went for the easy false conclusion.
 
-then there are all the messed up cables of course, from the cheap one with a bad contact and a piece of wire touching the ground or whatever, to the very expensive one with messed up impedance or capacitance values that are way out of what a cable should ever be. those are just bad stuff where a dude will try to make an alteration pass for improvement thanks to voodoo marketing. the result, just like very colored and distorted tube amps, is up to the listener to decide if a loss in fidelity ends up sounding better to his ears. some will find those cables great, if only because they paid 1000$ for them and that would be a serious blow to even imagine them measuring actually worst than a 10$ cable.
 
all in all, cables have optimal parameters determined depending on what they are conducting, a coax cable is best in the 60/75ohm zone I think to go with matched impedance of the input and output devices using coax. a headphone cable of 75ohm would be plain stupid in general. sure you can find the ER4 turning into ER4S with such a cable, but that's one specific IEM with an impedance response that justifies such a use to EQ the IEM a little brighter. doing it on most other multidriver IEMs would make most of them to sound like crap.

 
 
in conclusion, while nobody is denying that cables under certain circumstances will change sound, even audibly so. the claim that a certain cable will improve the sound audibly so on any and all headphones, that's one obvious giant BS.
as even cheap cables are relatively close to ideal specs for a given cable use, you would need to go out of your way to make something really better than what is already pretty well optimized(in a cost effective way). so expect most very obvious changes to be bad ones as far as signal fidelity goes.

 

[Speedskater]

A nit to pick.
 
'castleofargh' wrote:
 
all in all, cables have optimal parameters determined depending on what they are conducting, a coax cable is best in the 60/75ohm zone I think to go with matched impedance of the input and output devices using coax. a headphone cable of 75ohm would be plain stupid in general.
 
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That 75 Ohm coax cable business is the Radio Frequency Characteristic Impedance of the cable.  It has nothing to do with analog interconnect, speaker or headphone cables of reasonable length.  If your cables approach the 1 mile length, then we can talk more.

 

[castleofargh]

  A nit to pick.
 
'castleofargh' wrote:
 
all in all, cables have optimal parameters determined depending on what they are conducting, a coax cable is best in the 60/75ohm zone I think to go with matched impedance of the input and output devices using coax. a headphone cable of 75ohm would be plain stupid in general.
 
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That 75 Ohm coax cable business is the Radio Frequency Characteristic Impedance of the cable.  It has nothing to do with analog interconnect, speaker or headphone cables of reasonable length.  If your cables approach the 1 mile length, then we can talk more.

I'm not sure I get what you're saying? I was giving coax as an example that for a different usage, we could need different specs and that most cables for one particular usage would already be in vast majority, around the optimal specs.(BTW it's 50 or 75ohm I think that are the standard values, I miss-typed 60 in the post above).

 

[threephi]

On the contrary... He isn't a fan of bass. Between the he1000 and the less bassy, brighter HE6, he prefers the HE6. He loves the hifiman RE0 ( rather neutral with anemic bass ). In general he doesn't like it when he hears bassy stuff. You'd have avoided writing that entire para if you'd just ask me if he likes bass or not haha.

I guessed wrong then on that one point, but everything else I wrote stands.

 

[musikaladin]

Now, the other way round, using the D7100 with the aftermarket silver cable and the AK100II it sounds a little to the bright side, but still very very good, as soon as I change to the D600's standard cable, the sound is quite "veiled" in the midrange and the sound kind of seems to stick to the membranes; also unbearablable.

In fact it takes a lot more effort to not hear differences than to hear false differences which could be all that you are talking about.

Before you close your mind again, please let me explain.

Let us say that there are two audio components that sound identically the same. Contrary to naive audiophile belief such things actually exist and they are plentiful.

In your case no doubt you listen to one headphone/cable combination, and you listen to the other, you hear a diference and voila you congratulate yourself for being such a bright little boy and you brag about it on some audiophile forum.

What you don't seem to know is that even if the headphones and cables were identically the same and actually sounded identically the same, you'd never know it because of well known confounding influences that you naively allowed to exist as part and parcel of your comparison.

(1) During the time delay between unplugging one headphone/cable combination, and plugging up the other, at least 1-2 seconds will pass. During that time your brain will flush its short term memory, you know the memory that you need to hear subtle differences, or that things sound the same.  Therefore, the two sets of gear are guaranteed to sound different because you brain lacks the information to know that they sound the same.

(2) As you listen to the two sets of gear, time will pass during the playing of your musical selection. Music is not a stationary process, instead it is constantly changing. Unless you take special steps to synchronize the music within a few milliseconds (very few), a person will of necessity hear that the music and therefore the equipment plus the music sounds different simply because the music is different. Think this is not true? I've tested a number of people and they can hear this difference with a high level of statistical confidence in a DBT.

(3) You know that the equipment is different and you have been conditioned to believe that it sounds different.  You will hear a difference even if there isn't one because you believe that you should hear a difference.

(4) It is possible that the two cables actually do have slightly different audible amounts of attenuation, and since you didn't do anything to test it or address the problem, the equipment will sound different simply because the levels are not well enough matched.

So, even if some of the items above don't actually apply to your comparisons, some of the rest do.  You have probably fooled yourself into believing in the universal existence of audible differences among headphones and cables simply because you don't know of the need to address the items above, or how to address them. And, you are no different than millions of audiophiles in that regard.

...errrrr, this "bright little boy" as you call it is designing loudspeakers since 32 years now, from the cabinet to the crossover-network... I guess I've been spending some hundrets of hours blind testing, just to fine tune the crossovers (that was mostly before such wonderful PC based measurement equipment and crossover simulation software was available... so nowadays you can come much faster to satisfying results)...

Such blind tests are conducted by having 2 otherwise identical pairs of speakers with capacitors and coils from different suppliers and/or slightly different values in the crossovers. Thats a good way to make sure that you do not "accidently" prefer one component/value over another just because you think it should be better due to one or another reason... the whole exercise is only good for one thing: trying to avoid Placebo....

So when we (building speakers together with others is more fun) did such blind tests we were spending an equally substantial amount of time to discuss such issues you mention under your above points 1 to 4 (and some more) and trying to arrange those tests in a way to make as sure as possible that we could limit their influence to a minimum...

And by the way, those 4 points of yours are not that complex... I guess most people get them without "opening their mind" too far...

...before I forget to mention, while conducting such tests, also with loudspeaker designs by others, it even happened, that I preferred one cable over another for the internal cabling of a loudspeaker... in some cases even without actually knowing that there were different cables installed in the comparison pairs at all... sorry for that...

Here one of my speakers...

 

[Speedskater]

  I'm not sure I get what you're saying? I was giving coax as an example that for a different usage, we could need different specs and that most cables for one particular usage would already be in vast majority, around the optimal specs.(BTW it's 50 or 75ohm I think that are the standard values, I miss-typed 60 in the post above).

Those 50 & 75 Ohm values, are there radio frequency impedance values.  They have nothing to do with analog audio interconnect cables. But they do apply to digital audio interconnect cables.

 

[castleofargh]

 

  I'm not sure I get what you're saying? I was giving coax as an example that for a different usage, we could need different specs and that most cables for one particular usage would already be in vast majority, around the optimal specs.(BTW it's 50 or 75ohm I think that are the standard values, I miss-typed 60 in the post above).

Those 50 & 75 Ohm values, are there radio frequency impedance values.  They have nothing to do with analog audio interconnect cables. But they do apply to digital audio interconnect cables.

ohhhh, you're saying that we would measure something else while measuring the impedance in the audible range. wow I was light years dumber than that in what I was trying to explain. now I need another example with stuff people without electrical background may be familiar with. I hate you, but just a little. ^_^ 

 

[Speedskater]

Many technical people don't realize that it's different at audio frequencies.  They still use the shorter radio frequency formula, which doesn't work at low frequencies.
 
It's real tricky to measure at audio frequencies (regardless of length) and you will get a different impedance at each frequency. Only as you approach 100 kHz will you get down to the advertised value.

 

[lookingforIEMs]

I don't think I can afford to sleeve my cables at the moment. Hence I'm using this . This is an adaptor for the ex1000 to accept westone pin cables. This way, I won't be able to feel the cable over my ear. And it's a dynamic, so it'll negate any problems caused by multi driver iems somebody here was talking about.

 

[yeahx]

12 pages? Wow nice trolling. Anyways, even I know the answer is no. Carry on.

 

[xtroria]

I don't think I can afford to sleeve my cables at the moment. Hence I'm using this . This is an adaptor for the ex1000 to accept westone pin cables. This way, I won't be able to feel the cable over my ear. And it's a dynamic, so it'll negate any problems caused by multi driver iems somebody here was talking about.

Well using an amp with impedance less than 1 ohm is probably still recommended. Btw, this is a bit sidetracking but do you know headphone stores in singapore that i should visit? I'm looking for HE560, HD800 and noble K10 to test around (or at least for my old man

) 

 

[Joe Bloggs]

Well using an amp with impedance less than 1 ohm is probably still recommended. Btw, this is a bit sidetracking but do you know headphone stores in singapore that i should visit? I'm looking for HE560, HD800 and noble K10 to test around (or at least for my old man ) 

The huge Adelphi mall is almost nothing but audio showrooms

 

[lookingforIEMs]

Well using an amp with impedance less than 1 ohm is probably still recommended. Btw, this is a bit sidetracking but do you know headphone stores in singapore that i should visit? I'm looking for HE560, HD800 and noble K10 to test around (or at least for my old man ) 

The huge Adelphi mall is almost nothing but audio showrooms

Erm actually Joe, adelphi is home more for hifi, not headfi.



If you want to demo the K10, visit music sanctuary. Google them and you can find their location. It's at ming arcade.


If you want to audition hd800 and he560 side by side, visit stereo electronics at either Orchard ION or Plaza Singapura. An added bonus is that both stores have the LCD3.... he he he


Although, adelphi does have jaben and AV one side by side. AV one carries hifiman. Iirc jaben carries hd800. They also have A LOT of other goodies to demo!

 

[xtroria]

The huge Adelphi mall is almost nothing but audio showrooms

 
 

Erm actually Joe, adelphi is home more for hifi, not headfi.



If you want to demo the K10, visit music sanctuary. Google them and you can find their location. It's at ming arcade.


If you want to audition hd800 and he560 side by side, visit stereo electronics at either Orchard ION or Plaza Singapura. An added bonus is that both stores have the LCD3.... he he he


Although, adelphi does have jaben and AV one side by side. AV one carries hifiman. Iirc jaben carries hd800. They also have A LOT of other goodies to demo!

 
Cool, noted. Any other stores that you'd recommend me to visit?

 

[oldmate]

Just came across this crock of **** from Cardas;
 
 
"There are many factors that make cable break-in necessary and many reasons why the results vary. If you measure a new cable with a voltmeter you will see a standing voltage because good dielectrics make poor conductors. They hold a charge much like a rubbed cat’s fur on a dry day. It takes a while for this charge to equalize in the cable. Better cables often take longer to break-in. The best "air dielectric" techniques, such as PFA tube construction, have large non-conductive surfaces to hold charge, much like the cat on a dry day.
 
Cables that do not have time to settle, such as musical instrument and microphone cables, often use conductive dielectrics like rubber or carbonized cotton to get around the problem. This dramatically reduces microphonics and settling time, but the other dielectric characteristics of these insulators are poor and they do not qualify sonically for high-end cables. Developing non-destructive techniques for reducing and equalizing the charge in excellent dielectric is a challenge in high end cables.
 
The high input impedance necessary in audio equipment makes uneven dielectric charge a factor. One reason settling time takes so long is we are linking the charge with mechanical stress/strain relationships. The physical make up of a cable is changed slightly by the charge and visa versa. It is like electrically charging the cat. The physical make up of the cat is changed by the charge. It is "frizzed" and the charge makes it's hair stand on end. "PFA Cats", cables and their dielectric, take longer to loose this charge and reach physical homeostasis.
 
The better the dielectric's insulation, the longer it takes to settle. A charge can come from simply moving the cable (Piezoelectric effect and simple friction), high voltage testing during manufacture, etc.  Cable that has a standing charge is measurably more microphonic and an uneven distribution of the charge causes something akin to structural return loss in a rising impedance system. When I took steps to eliminate these problems, break-in time was reduced and the cable sounded generally better. I know Bill Low at Audioquest has also taken steps to minimize this problem.
Mechanical stress is the root of a lot of the break-in phenomenon and it is not just a factor with cables. As a rule, companies set up audition rooms at high end audio shows a couple of days ahead of time to let them break in. The first day the sound is usually bad and it is very stressful. The last day sounds great. Mechanical stress in speaker cables, speaker cabinets, even the walls of the room, must be relaxed in order for the system to sound its best. This is the same phenomenon we experience in musical instruments. They sound much better after they have been played. Many musicians leave their instruments in front of a stereo that is playing to get them to warm up. This is very effective with a new guitar. Pianos are a stress and strain nightmare. Any change, even in temperature or humidity, will degrade their sound. A precisely tuned stereo system is similar.
You never really get all the way there, you sort of keep halving the distance to zero. Some charge is always retained. It is generally in the MV range in a well settled cable. Triboelectric noise in a cable is a function of stress and retained charge, which a good cable will release with both time and use. How much time and use is dependent on the design of the cable, materials used, treatment of the conductors during manufacture, etc.
 
There are many small tricks and ways of dealing with the problem. Years ago, I began using PFA tube "air dielectric" construction and the charge on the surface of the tubes became a real issue. I developed a fluid that adds a very slight conductivity to the surface of the dielectric. Treated cables actually have a  better measured dissipation factor and the sound of the cables improved substantially. It had been observed in mid eighties that many cables could be improved by wiping them with a anti-static cloth. Getting something to stick to PFA was the real challenge. We now use an anti-static fluid in all our cables and anti-static additives in the final jacketing material. This attention to charge has reduced break-in time and in general made the cable sound substantially better. This is due to the reduction of overall charge in the cable and the equalization of the distributed charge on the surface of conductor jacket.
 
It seems there are many infinitesimal factors that add up. Overtime you find one leads down a path to another. In short, if a dielectric surface in a cable has a high or uneven charge which dissipates with time or use, triboelectric and other noise in the cable will also reduce with time and use. This is the essence of break-in
 
A note of caution. Moving a cable will, to some degree, traumatize it. The amount of disturbance is relative to the materials used, the cable's design and the amount of disturbance. Keeping a very low level signal in the cable at all times helps. At a show, where time is short, you never turn the system off. I also believe the use of degaussing sweeps, such as on the Cardas Frequency Sweep and Burn-In Record (side 1, cut 2a) helps.
A small amount of energy is retained in the stored mechanical stress of the cable. As the cable relaxes, a certain amount of the charge is released, like in an electroscope. This is the electromechanical connection.
Many factors relating to a cable's break-in are found in the sonic character or signature of a cable. If we look closely at dielectrics we find a similar situation. The dielectric actually changes slightly as it charges and its dissipation factor is linked to its hardness. In part these changes are evidenced in the standing charge of the cable. A new cable, out of the bag, will have a standing charge when uncoiled. It can have as much as several hundred millivolts. If the cable is left at rest it will soon drop to under one hundred, but it will takes days of use in the system to fall to the teens and it never quite reaches zero. These standing charges appear particularly significant in low level interconnects to preamps with high impedance inputs.
 
The interaction of mechanical and electrical stress/strain variables in a cable are integral with the break-in, as well as the resonance of the cable. Many of the variables are lumped into a general category called triboelectric noise. Noise is generated in a cable as a function of the variations between the components of the cable. If a cable is flexed, moved, charged, or changed in any way, it will be a while before it is relaxed again. The symmetry of the cable's construction is a big factor here. Very careful design and execution by the manufacturer helps a lot. Very straight forward designs can be greatly improved with the careful choice of materials and symmetrical construction. Audioquest has built a large and successful high-end cable company around these principals.
 
The basic rules for the interaction of mechanical and electrical stress/strain variables holds true, regardless of scale or medium. Cables, cats, pianos and rooms all need to relax in order to be at their best. Constant attention to physical and environmental conditions, frequent use and the degaussing of a system help it achieve and maintain a relaxed state.
 
A note on breaking in box speakers, a process which seems to take forever. When I want to speed up the break-in process, I place the speakers face to face, with one speaker wired out of phase and play a surf CD through them. After about a week, I place them in their normal listening position and continue the process for three more days. After that, I play a degaussing sweep a few times. Then it is just a matter of playing music and giving them time."
 
 
Moving your cable will traumatize it!!
 
 
Seriously Cardas, screw you and your bull dust.