[anetode]

They offer both interconnects and digital transmission cables. If bullcrap works for one type of product, why not try it out on the others?

 

[Lead Ears]

Quote:

Originally Posted by anetode /img/forum/go_quote.gif They offer both interconnects and digital transmission cables. If bullcrap works for one type of product, why not try it out on the others?

On that insightful note, I'm going to bow out for the night.

Cheers.

 

[immtbiker]

The earth will be a better place to live, when we can actually have a thread about cables, without it getting mean-spirited or aggressive.

 

[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by roadtonowhere08 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I saw that as well. I did not object to that, because it is not claiming to be an analog cable for digital connections.

But THOSE are the cables I was talking about when you replied to me saying that the cable WASN'T analogue.

Quote:

It still has many of the same contradictions though.

What contradictions?

se

 

[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by roadtonowhere08 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Again, I understand that. Perhaps you can relax and look at what I am saying? My first post regarding this links to the different (digital) cable. I can understand your point and make my own, no?

When you respond to my referring to a particular cable, saying it's entirely analogue, by telling me that it's not analogue, you're not making your own point. You're telling me that what I said was incorrect.

se

 

[colonelkernel8]

Quote:

Originally Posted by immtbiker /img/forum/go_quote.gif The earth will be a better place to live, when we can actually have a thread about cables, without it getting mean-spirited or aggressive.

The world would be a better place to live if pseudo-science cable peddlers didn't exist.

 

[roadtonowhere08]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi /img/forum/go_quote.gif What contradictions?

(sigh) These (DIGITAL):
Quote:

Originally Posted by roadtonowhere08 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Harmonic Technology | Products | Photon Cables | Photon Digital Wow, over $3,000 to be lied to. How can the music "never be digitized" on a digital cable? It enters the cable as binary data, so right there, they are lying. In addition, they say that there is "absolutely no analog-to-digital conversion". So how does the S/PDIF receiving RCA jack read the data? It can only accept digital data as sent by the source RCA jack. It makes no sense. I like this sentence: "Musical information is preserved to a greater degree due to complete lack of digitization". The product is called "Harmonic Technology Photon Digital Data Link".

These (COMBINED DIGITAL AND ANALOG):
Quote:

Originally Posted by roadtonowhere08 /img/forum/go_quote.gif In addition, they contradict themselves with two consecutive bullets: - Light transmission through the fiber is uni-directional - Since back reflection is extremely low (< -55dB), optical isolators are unnecessary More contradictions: With the signal (pulse) path completely isolated from the ground, the Photon Digital ensures that there is no possibility of the cables passing noise between components, nor acting as an antenna for RFI or EMI induced distortions—keeping the noise floor extremely low and reducing smearing. Please note: Because there are no physical wires built within the Photon Digital, an extra ground wire may be needed in order to ensure components are on the same ground level. Finally: True component impedance match for either 75 OHM "RCA"... No such thing as a true 75 OHM RCA. They would have to use BNC for that... oh wait, they do not offer that

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi /img/forum/go_quote.gif But THOSE are the cables I was talking about when you replied to me saying that the cable WASN'T analogue.

I ceded that point. The cable itself might be analog, but it HAS to convert the signal back to a format that the DAC can read. I'm guessing the digital kind, but that may just be me.

Proof of my ceding your point:
Quote:

Originally Posted by roadtonowhere08 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The cable may be, but the signal entering it is not analog. It is coming from a digital RCA from the source. It will then be converted back to digital before entering the DAC. Why would anyone want to go D-A-D when you can leave it as digital right until the DAC? I agree with you about the distortion (the extra conversion surely adds to it), but they are still contradicting their own claims at every turn. That, to me, is lying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi /img/forum/go_quote.gif When you respond to my referring to a particular cable, saying it's entirely analogue, by telling me that it's not analogue, you're not making your own point. You're telling me that what I said was incorrect.

See above...

Quote:

Originally Posted by immtbiker /img/forum/go_quote.gif The earth will be a better place to live, when we can actually have a thread about cables, without it getting mean-spirited or aggressive.

Agreed

Quote:

Originally Posted by colonelkernel8 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The world would be a better place to live if pseudo-science cable peddlers didn't exist.

Agreed

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by colonelkernel8 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The world would be a better place to live if pseudo-science cable peddlers didn't exist.

Yeah, that's the biggest problem we have alright. I'd put it about 138,848,383,800,477 places down on the list of things that we need to worry about. Geez.

Actually, the world would not be a better place to live, because it would eliminate a choice, and freedom of choice for many. It's unfortunate that some people on this thread, and in our society in general, actually think they know better than every one else what people should want and be able to have. They want to eliminate choices and only allow what they think is best for everyone. God help us.

P.S. Maybe we should all wear the same color clothes. Red perhaps?

 

[crapback]

We spend all this time fussing about cables and yet no one stops to consider the feelings of the electrons. They're the ones doing all the work and yet no one gives them any recognition. It's always virgin stroked silver this or penultimate TLA copper that. Nobody ever asks the electrons which metal feels better. It's just like giving the little worker bees lung cancer just so you can hork their honey.

 

[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by roadtonowhere08 /img/forum/go_quote.gif (sigh) These (DIGITAL):

Just so you know, HeadFi doesn't allow the nesting of quotes when quoting a reply so all the stuff you quoted is removed. It's better to put it in italics or something other than the quote tags.

Quote:

How can the music "never be digitized" on a digital cable? It enters the cable as binary data, so right there, they are lying.

The cables contain active electronics. Therefore it would be possible to re-sample the digital data if that were something they chose to do. What they're saying is that they don't. That's not a contradiction.

Quote:

In addition, they say that there is "absolutely no analog-to-digital conversion".

They say that for all the Photon cables. And what they're saying is that there's no analog-to-digital conversion taking place in the cables. And there's not. So I don't see that it's a contradiction.

Quote:

I like this sentence: "Musical information is preserved to a greater degree due to complete lack of digitization". The product is called "Harmonic Technology Photon Digital Data Link".

There is a complete lack of digitization in the cables.

Quote:

In addition, they contradict themselves with two consecutive bullets: - Light transmission through the fiber is uni-directional - Since back reflection is extremely low (< -55dB), optical isolators are unnecessary

The key word here being "transmission." And from a transmission point of view, they are uni-directional. There's only a laser transmitter at one end of the cable.

Again, I see no contradiction.

Quote:

With the signal (pulse) path completely isolated from the ground, the Photon Digital ensures that there is no possibility of the cables passing noise between components, nor acting as an antenna for RFI or EMI induced distortions—keeping the noise floor extremely low and reducing smearing. Please note: Because there are no physical wires built within the Photon Digital, an extra ground wire may be needed in order to ensure components are on the same ground level.

Well, they do say "may," and I'm not sure what sort of scenario they are referring to here so I'll reserve judgment on calling it a contradiction.

Quote:

Finally: True component impedance match for either 75 OHM "RCA"... No such thing as a true 75 OHM RCA. They would have to use BNC for that... oh wait, they do not offer that

No, there isn't a true 75 ohm RCA, but it's RCA's that are commonly used for S/PDIF inputs and outputs, and S/PDIF is a 75 ohm standard.

Quote:

I ceded that point.

No you didn't.

Quote:

The cable itself might be analog, but it HAS to convert the signal back to a format that the DAC can read.

Again, the cables I was referring to were NOT INTENDED to be used on a DAC. They receive an ANALOGUE input and have an ANALOGUE output and everything in between is ANALOGUE.

Quote:

Proof of my ceding your point: The cable may be, but the signal entering it is not analog.

You weren't conceding my point. You were telling me I was incorrect, when I was not.

The cables I was referring to DO have an ANALOGUE signal ENTERING them.

Quote:

It is coming from a digital RCA from the source.

NOT IN THE CABLES I WAS REFERRING TO!

THE CABLES I WAS REFERRING TO WAS THE PHOTON AMP AND THE PHOTON LINK CABLES! NOT THE PHOTON DIGITAL DATA LINK!

*sigh*

se

 

[immtbiker]

Quote:

Originally Posted by colonelkernel8 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The world would be a better place to live if pseudo-science cable peddlers didn't exist.

"no aspirin takes away the pain better than "****". Just tricky advertising. They all use the same ingredients in the same strengths. So, even though what they are saying is true, it is a deception.

Also, I think that this thread would be better suited if we got off the "Cyber Light " cable discussion. It's starting to get nasty in here, and it doesn't really matter. You both made your point and I think that you are agreeing to disagree.

 

[oatmeal769]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donald North /img/forum/go_quote.gif I personally feel there are much better ways for the same out-of-pocket money to improve one's hi-fi than with cables. However I do know some instances where specific cables will provide measurable differences and benefits.

by virtue of better or worse engineering for the application at hand, absolutely. But assuming one cable is similar in measurements (like capacitance and resistance) to another, there will be no audible difference beyond pure imagination.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Donald North /img/forum/go_quote.gif Example: Tube preamp with high output impedance driving long interconnect cables to monoblock amplifiers. Let's say the preamp's output impedance is 7Kohm - it doesn't have a low impedance output buffer or follower. Interconnect cables are 20 feet long with 100pF/foot capacitance (common for generic low cost interconnect cables). This combination forms a low pass filter at -3dB at 11,370Hz! This WILL be audible. To improve, change to lower capacitance cables or different preamp with lower output impedance.

No argument but again, it's a matter of engineering, not majick cables. If you use 20' interconnects to Drive a small Hi Z output signal to a Hi Z input which then is going to be made much larger,, it's gonna sound like crud. Vanadimium connectors and holographically aligned phasing cables or not. Using a lower capacitance cable might polish the turd, but the better way to do it would be to drive the signal down the line better, (using a transformer balanced system) or use shorter interconnect. To put it another way. We could use a Screeching Valkye red shift copper, irradiated lepton, quasi hemispheric interconnect RCA cable to run a subwoofer off a high power amp. We could also use my favorite Radio Shack RCA cable. Both will probably melt, or pop the amp first, It's not what they were designed to do.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Donald North /img/forum/go_quote.gif Here's another example: You don't use an active preamp and instead use a passive preamp like a potentiometer in a box. The pot's impedance is 50K - common amplifier input impedance. The output impedance of the pot will vary from near 0 to 12.5Kohm, depending on setting (worst case is -6dB from max). This pot feeds the same long 20 feet, 100pF/ft cables. Depending on volume setting, the high frequency low pass filter will vary in corner frequency from infinity (theoretically) to 6366Hz! To improve, use a lower capacitance cable or passive preamp with lower input impedance. If the latter, then this can start challenging the drive capability of the source components' analog outputs.

Certainly, but this is also application and engineering.
Two cables of approximately equal measurements will not be discernible by listening alone - A fancy Hi-cap cable and one from the pawn shop will both sound equally bad here. -And equally good when used in an application for which they were made. Any 'subtle differences' heard are the imagination of the listener.

 

[oatmeal769]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's a little tricky searching for posts on Zu cables, because the Head-Fi search function will not let you search for a term with only two letters, like "Zu."

Au contraire mon frere! here's a nifty trick I learned a while back - put a '*' (wildcard) after 'Zu' and you're golden. Example: Zu*

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oatmeal769 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Au contraire mon frere! here's a nifty trick I learned a while back - put a '*' (wildcard) after 'Zu' and you're golden. Example: Zu*

Excellent! I've been stymied by the three letter minimum quite a few times. Thanks.

 

[roadtonowhere08]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi /img/forum/go_quote.gif Just so you know, HeadFi doesn't allow the nesting of quotes when quoting a reply so all the stuff you quoted is removed. It's better to put it in italics or something other than the quote tags.

Nope, all I wanted to say is all there.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi /img/forum/go_quote.gif The cables contain active electronics. Therefore it would be possible to re-sample the digital data if that were something they chose to do. What they're saying is that they don't. That's not a contradiction.

They do not have to. The music starts as a digital signal, so it already has been "digitized". It's really a false claim. How does the DAC read a signal that has been turned into analog already? You cannot have it both ways: it's not digital but it is still able to be decoded by a DAC.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi /img/forum/go_quote.gif They say that for all the Photon cables. And what they're saying is that there's no analog-to-digital conversion taking place in the cables. And there's not. So I don't see that it's a contradiction.

How is the DAC able to read the output of the cable if there is no analog-to-digital conversion then? It starts out digital on the source, it gets turned into "laser analog", and then what?


Quote:

Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi /img/forum/go_quote.gif There is a complete lack of digitization in the cables.

See above.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi /img/forum/go_quote.gif The key word here being "transmission." And from a transmission point of view, they are uni-directional. There's only a laser transmitter at one end of the cable. Again, I see no contradiction.

That's just being pedantic. Of course it is "transmitted" one way, how else would it work? This is needless information, because it is obvious, and to put right after that bullet there are reflections going back, it can be taken as being contradictory.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, they do say "may," and I'm not sure what sort of scenario they are referring to here so I'll reserve judgment on calling it a contradiction.

Well, when they claim this,
"With the signal path being unidirectional, the signal ground loop is completely isolated, creating a much darker background"
I am inclined to call BS on all of that claim.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi /img/forum/go_quote.gif No, there isn't a true 75 ohm RCA, but it's RCA's that are commonly used for S/PDIF inputs and outputs, and S/PDIF is a 75 ohm standard.

Sorry, to claim that they are using "true" 75Ohm RCA connectors is just flat lying. There is no other way around that.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi /img/forum/go_quote.gif No you didn't.

Believe what you want.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi /img/forum/go_quote.gif Again, the cables I was referring to were NOT INTENDED to be used on a DAC. They receive an ANALOGUE input and have an ANALOGUE output and everything in between is ANALOGUE.

Well, if you are going to refute me, you will have to refute my point. I brought up the digital cable and only the digital cable. You thought I was talking about the analog cable (same thing really). Please read post #225 more carefully.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi /img/forum/go_quote.gif You weren't conceding my point. You were telling me I was incorrect, when I was not.

Again, believe what you want.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi /img/forum/go_quote.gif The cables I was referring to DO have an ANALOGUE signal ENTERING them. NOT IN THE CABLES I WAS REFERRING TO! THE CABLES I WAS REFERRING TO WAS THE PHOTON AMP AND THE PHOTON LINK CABLES! NOT THE PHOTON DIGITAL DATA LINK! *sigh*

I. Understand. That.

It's always about your cables.

I understand the point about your cables. Analog all around. I can hang with that. I am picking up what you are laying down. I am totally down with your vibe. I am grooving to your tunes...





Are you picking up what I am laying down? Can you get past the point you are trying to make and see mine? I think if you got a bit less defensive, you would find that we agree on a lot more than you think...