[brendon]

Well I posted because I am still shocked that I was wrong about the difference. I was so sure the first time I tired it before but I guess there is a limit to trusting your ears !

Though this revelation came at a most fortuitous time as I was thinking of plonking $100 for a nice silver cable as people commented they give a brighter sound presentation but now I have saved my money !

But it seems so weird because if all cables sound more or less the same then how come people spend gazillions of dollars on cables and claim to 'dramatically' improve the sound. And how come some companies (Monster cables anyone ? ) make a million dollar business selling something which makes a very little difference to sound ? It really boggles my mind !

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by brendon /img/forum/go_quote.gif But it seems so weird because if all cables sound more or less the same then how come people spend gazillions of dollars on cables and claim to 'dramatically' improve the sound. And how come some companies (Monster cables anyone ? ) make a million dollar business selling something which makes a very little difference to sound ? It really boggles my mind !

1. People want to believe
2. Magical thinking see (1)
3. Clever marketing with pseudiscience overtones and inappropriate use of metrics
4. See (1)
5. Sighted listening tests
6. Expectation bias
7. Visual appreance creating bias
8. See (1)

To date only 1 blind listening test has ever produced positive results and that was with the pre-riaa output of a turntable cartridge and the cables were 1m and 6m, in this case given the small level of signal (mV) means that the extra loss due to length may be audible. All other line level cable(*) blind tests have shown the null result.

* - cables without zobel networks and so on...

 

[AdamWysokinski]

Yes, Nick has summarized the issue very correctly. And since the human beliefs are the root of evil, it is very difficult (if possible) to persuade them that there are no differences - even when facing purely scientific and thus objective arguments people use the "who-cares-whether-it-is-impossible-if-I-can-hear-it" argument. After all, agreeing with us would mean admitting ones naiveness and foolishness. The bad thing is that unaware people, magazine reviews and marketing help in maintaining this fraud.

 

[Shike]

Quote:

Originally Posted by brendon /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well I posted because I am still shocked that I was wrong about the difference. I was so sure the first time I tired it before but I guess there is a limit to trusting your ears ! Though this revelation came at a most fortuitous time as I was thinking of plonking $100 for a nice silver cable as people commented they give a brighter sound presentation but now I have saved my money ! But it seems so weird because if all cables sound more or less the same then how come people spend gazillions of dollars on cables and claim to 'dramatically' improve the sound. And how come some companies (Monster cables anyone ? ) make a million dollar business selling something which makes a very little difference to sound ? It really boggles my mind !

Nick did a pretty good job of summing it up, but just to re-enforce the point.

I take it you've seen ads on TV or spam in your email advertising "enhancement" products or "get buff fast", stuff like that. One of their famous quotes is "If (the product) didn't do something pretty amazing, could we afford to do this?".

It's because it doesn't that they can. You'll notice many exotic cable manufactures offer a in your home trial to make their arguments seem more believable just like the free trials of (insert product here). When it comes down to it though and things actually get measured no difference can be found on either (Pen & Teller BS! did an episode on enhancement for example).

Placebo is extremely effective and based entirely on one wanting to believe. If the cable costs $3 to make but they can find even one person to buy it for $100+ they've made a killing. If one doesn't they haven't lost that much and just ship it on to the next one until they find someone willing to believe. It truly is like snake oil of ages ago.

 

[Catharsis]

All this talk has me thinking.....

I can import some copper wire from Giant Tiger for $0.18/ft and have my wife knit some nice wool sleeves for it and sell it on the internet for $200/ft.

I mean, we can't trust these engineers at Sennheiser / AKG / Beyer etc to design a competent cable for their headphones - the least I can do is provide an expensive solution. After all, I have a PhD in bs.

 

[rederanged]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catharsis /img/forum/go_quote.gif All this talk has me thinking..... I can import some copper wire from Giant Tiger for $0.18/ft and have my wife knit some nice wool sleeves for it and sell it on the internet for $200/ft.

With the Catharsis wool cables, Diana Krall's voice wrapped around me like a warm, cozy sweater. However, I did occasionally notice a subtle, scratchy overtone in the upright bass.

 

[Necrolic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nick_charles /img/forum/go_quote.gif Try this... Connect a cable to a music device and connect it to a USB recording device and thence to a computer. Now record a short sample (< 15 seconds) of cymbals or similar from your music device to your pc using Audacity or similar. Repeat 10 times to allow for variability. Trim and align all 10 samples so that they are the same length (they must be the exact same length ) and start in the same place. Load each sample into Audacity and run them through the spectrum analyzer using 2048 samples and export the results to 10 text files. Now without adjusting the recording level swap the cables and repeat the exercise with cable B In a spreadsheet application import all 10 text files for cable A and average out the results remove all data above 20000hz. Repeat for cable B so that the end result is two Average data sets. Create a line chart from the two data sets. What level of differences do you find ? I can guarantee that the differences you will find will be tiny. You can then of course take typical examples from both cables and DBT them. I have done this with several cables...

I don't think anybody is claiming cables make a huge difference, it's to get that last few % out of your setup.

I have tried several different cables from cheap to $200, not expensive per se, but certainly not cheap. I definitely notice differences between them, but to be honest I couldn't tell you which is which in a DBT. They don't IMPROVE sound, they change it. Some change it in a more positive way than others, some are clearer than others, but if they're all within a reasonable price range and you have never heard them before you aren't going to be able to say "This is the most expensive".

 

[sohels]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Necrolic /img/forum/go_quote.gif I definitely notice differences between them, but to be honest I couldn't tell you which is which in a DBT.

There is no rational way of reconciling part one and part two of that statement. Just saying.

 

[Catharsis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rederanged /img/forum/go_quote.gif With the Catharsis wool cables, Diana Krall's voice wrapped around me like a warm, cozy sweater. However, I did occasionally notice a subtle, scratchy overtone in the upright bass.

LOL!

That scratchy overtone will be fixed when I move from pure wool wire sleeves to cashmere.

FWIW, I recently had my SA5000 recabled with a stock HD650 cable and the best thing about the sound is that it has 2 channels of sound instead of 1. Other than that....no diff.

Of course, all due respect to those cable manufacture-ers, and soldering iron wielders. Without them I would have a broken SA5000 and be totally screwed.

 

[Necrolic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sohels /img/forum/go_quote.gif There is no rational way of reconciling part one and part two of that statement. Just saying.

It was phrased poorly, what I meant is that while the cables DO sound different, one DOES NOT necessarily sound better than the other, just different. If I had no chance to listen to either before, I could tell you they were different cables and the differences between them, each one having their positives and their negatives, but I couldn't tell you which was more expensive.

Does that make more sense?

 

[sohels]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Necrolic /img/forum/go_quote.gif I could tell you they were different cables and the differences between them, each one having their positives and their negatives

You should be able to consistently pass A/B/X in that case. Do you?

 

[Necrolic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sohels /img/forum/go_quote.gif You should be able to consistently pass A/B/X in that case. Do you?

Yes. Like I said, the cables sound DIFFERENT. Neither is better than the other, they just have a different sound signature that makes them distinguishable from one another.

And I'm not saying they make a huge leap in SQ, I'm saying they sound different so different cables suit different systems. There really is no improvement in SQ overall, just you get better in some areas worse in others.

 

[tmars78]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Necrolic /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes. Like I said, the cables sound DIFFERENT. Neither is better than the other, they just have a different sound signature that makes them distinguishable from one another. And I'm not saying they make a huge leap in SQ, I'm saying they sound different so different cables suit different systems. There really is no improvement in SQ overall, just you get better in some areas worse in others.

You'll be the first person ever, and I think there is quite the reward for doing so.

 

[Necrolic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmars78 /img/forum/go_quote.gif You'll be the first person ever, and I think there is quite the reward for doing so.

If you're referring to the $1 million for identifying the better cable thing, like I said, I don't believe more expensive cables are better, I think they're different. If I did a DBT with 4 or 5 cables including the $7k one, I guarantee you I would not be able to tell you which was the $7k cable.

I don't see what's so hard to understand about that, no cables are BETTER, they are DIFFERENT. It's as simple as that. And I know for a fact I'm not the first one to say that, or be able to identify A/B/X after listening to them for hours before hand knowing which was which letter, but not how much each costed.

There are many who can distinguish differences between cables and identify A/B/X with no preconceived idea on the price of each if they were allowed to audition each cable unknowing of which cable is which outside of their letter assignments (person switching cables says "This is A, This is B, This is C", not "This is APS, This is Cardas, This is whatever"). What people CAN NOT do is take cables assigned A/B/X and tell you which costs the most.

And the differences between cables are EXTREMELY subtle, they are not large differences at all.

 

[tmars78]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Necrolic /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you're referring to the $1 million for identifying the better cable thing, like I said, I don't believe more expensive cables are better, I think they're different. If I did a DBT with 4 or 5 cables including the $7k one, I guarantee you I would not be able to tell you which was the $7k cable. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that, no cables are BETTER, they are DIFFERENT. It's as simple as that. And I know for a fact I'm not the first one to say that, or be able to identify A/B/X after listening to them for hours before hand knowing which was which letter, but not how much each costed. There are many who can distinguish differences between cables and identify A/B/X with no preconceived idea on the price of each if they were allowed to audition each cable unknowing of which cable is which outside of their letter assignments (person switching cables says "This is A, This is B, This is C", not "This is APS, This is Cardas, This is whatever"). What people CAN NOT do is take cables assigned A/B/X and tell you which costs the most. And the differences between cables are EXTREMELY subtle, they are not large differences at all.

It's not about picking out which one is the most expensive. Price is completely irrelevant, it's about telling the 2 apart. We are saying all cables sound the same, you are saying they don't. So if I were to give you a cable, any cable, let you use it for 6 months, a year, whatever, get used to how it sounds, that if you took a DBT with said cable and other cables, you'd be able to pick the cable you are listening for every time?