[CrackBerry9000]

Haloxt, I need some interconnects for my dac and amp. What would you recommend?

 

[SilverCans]

How can anyone say "all cables sound the same" when measurable parameters such as capacitance, inductance, and resistance can differ greatly? I am NOT an advocate for expensive cables or will ever say that two cables with the same RLC specs (or very similar) will sound different (because odds are, and IMHO, they wont), but we can't blindly say "all sound exactly the same."

 

[Pistachio]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverCans /img/forum/go_quote.gif How can anyone say "all cables sound the same" when measurable parameters such as capacitance, inductance, and resistance can differ greatly? I am NOT an advocate for expensive cables or will ever say that two cables with the same RLC specs (or very similar) will sound different (because odds are, and IMHO, they wont), but we can't blindly say "all sound exactly the same."

Because the capacitance, inductance and resistance within reasonable listening conditions should by our understanding of physics have zero audible effect on what we hear.

Because all evidence and theoretical understanding we have points towards the cables making no difference we should therefore assume that there is no difference until we find evidence to the contrary. Which will never happen, after fifty years of audiphoolery we still don't have a positive DBT. Not a single one. This could all be over in a couple hours if one golden-eared individual would just take a damn DBT which according to their own accounts would be very easy.

 

[CrackBerry9000]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pistachio /img/forum/go_quote.gif Because the capacitance, inductance and resistance within reasonable listening conditions should by our understanding of physics have zero audible effect on what we hear. Because all evidence and theoretical understanding we have points towards the cables making no difference we should therefore assume that there is no difference until we find evidence to the contrary. Which will never happen, after fifty years of audiphoolery we still don't have a positive DBT. Not a single one. This could all be over in a couple hours if one golden-eared individual would just take a damn DBT which according to their own accounts would be very easy.

Should or does not?

One golden eared person represents everyone?

 

[Pistachio]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrackBerry9000 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Should or does not?

Both. It shouldn't be audible and as far as we have observed it hasn't been audible.

Quote:

One golden eared person represents everyone?

I really don't see what you are trying to say at all.

 

[sbtruitt]

Here's a good read sometime from someone I really respect:
Speaker Wire
(He has alot of other cool stuff on his site)

I remember the DBT speaker wire tests he talks about that McIntosh did in the 80s. This debate has been going on for a long time - still no 'proof' from the these cable makers - which as someone mentioned - the burdon of proof should really be on them, not us.

 

[sarathcpt]

Why can't just people understand and resign to the idea that if some people feel a difference in what they hear, so be it and if some people don't, so be it. Each to his own pair of ears and taste of sound.

This argument can be extended to any aspect of audio. There are many people who can't make out any real difference between the sound coming out of the laptop and say a $2000 DAC+AMP combo! You try to explain soundstage, bass-control, impedance matching, 24bit 192Khz or whatever..they will say it sounds all the same or maybe they will say now that you said it, yeah I notice something ! I wouldn't be surprised if some of them think of us 'audiophiles' the same way the 'cable non-believers' think of 'cable-believers'.

 

[Uncle Erik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverCans /img/forum/go_quote.gif How can anyone say "all cables sound the same" when measurable parameters such as capacitance, inductance, and resistance can differ greatly? I am NOT an advocate for expensive cables or will ever say that two cables with the same RLC specs (or very similar) will sound different (because odds are, and IMHO, they wont), but we can't blindly say "all sound exactly the same."

Lots of people have measured cables, myself included. Nothing of significance ever turns up. Ever. Believers usually argue that there are "unknown" factors that cannot be measured. What's amazing is that this X factor has no effect on resistance, capacitance or inductance. Usually when there's a missing piece, its effects can be inductively determined by the known parts being mysteriously off. A lot of important discoveries were inferred before really being nailed down. The problem with cables is that the X factor shows up nowhere except in the "I think I hear something" test.

The problem with "I think I hear something" is that no one can hear something if they don't know what they're listening to.

The reasonable conclusion to draw is that cable effects are entirely psychological.

The other possibility is that there is a mysterious force that - somehow - evades the mos sophisticated test equipment and cannot even be inferred from deficiencies in known forces. Further, this mysterious force somehow "knows" when people can't see a cable and ruins the test.

Oh, and the people making these cables are rolling in obscene profits from every sale.

Is it really that difficult to see what's going on?

Unknown force of physics that only turns up in audio cables, or are people turning a buck off psychological tricks?

Oh, and there's plenty incentive to nail this down, too. If someone did, they could corner the cable market and roll in eight or nine figures of profits. They could slam the skeptics and make them look like idiots. Further, discovering an unknown force of physics would practically guarantee a Nobel Prize and you'd probably get an element named after you, too. Not to mention book deals and a nice, tenured position at a major research university, speaking fees, and a measure of fame.

Think that would be incentive enough?

Even if there is something there, it can be said that nobody today understands what's going on. That makes it almost impossible to tell the difference between a sincere product and a scam product. Without any objective measure, you could either get a miracle or Romex inside a garden hose, as one manufacturer infamously used.

 

[sbtruitt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarathcpt /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why can't just people understand and resign to the idea that if some people feel a difference in what they hear, so be it and if some people don't, so be it. Each to his own pair of ears and taste of sound. This argument can be extended to any aspect of audio. There are many people who can't make out any real difference between the sound coming out of the laptop and say a $2000 DAC+AMP combo! You try to explain soundstage, bass-control, impedance matching, 24bit 192Khz or whatever..they will say it sounds all the same or maybe they will say now that you said it, yeah I notice something ! I wouldn't be surprised if some of them think of us 'audiophiles' the same way the 'cable non-believers' think of 'cable-believers'.

I do, and dont begrudge anyone who thinks using something makes *their* setup sound better. The argument can be made that if you *think* it sounds better, then it does. But I think then, that that is a different argument and discussion.

At least for me, I was just saying that for a long time expensive cable makers (and others) have made very bold claims and in some cases charge alot of money for a given product, so I think the onus should be on them to provide some real proof and reason as to why buying their cable sounds better.

 

[googleborg]

i'll put it this way, there are sponsor links everywhere, and cables and such stuff are total cash-cows for everyone in the chain of selling them, the connexion is obvious. and i'm cool with that, forums cost money to run afterall and it's not a right to be able to post here.

Personally though i think i'll hang out here and the computer audio forums and the DIY one to learn some actually useful infomation from people who *gasp* actually know stuff!

, i'd much rather to learn how to build my own little amplififer and understand how they work exactly, than get a PHD in namedropping 'audiophile' brands which is all the rest of the forums seem to offer.

there's absolutely nothing to be gained from arguing with an audiophile who's trying to jump whilst in midair.

 

[terriblepaulz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarathcpt /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why can't just people understand and resign to the idea that if some people feel a difference in what they hear, so be it and if some people don't, so be it. Each to his own pair of ears and taste of sound. This argument can be extended to any aspect of audio. There are many people who can't make out any real difference between the sound coming out of the laptop and say a $2000 DAC+AMP combo! You try to explain soundstage, bass-control, impedance matching, 24bit 192Khz or whatever..they will say it sounds all the same or maybe they will say now that you said it, yeah I notice something ! I wouldn't be surprised if some of them think of us 'audiophiles' the same way the 'cable non-believers' think of 'cable-believers'.

Why you ask? Edmund Burke said it best: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing".

 

[Bullseye]

Uncle Erik, your position is quite curious.

You deny any cable being able to change SQ, (no doubt, though, there is enough evidence to tell you that), yet you believe there is a massive difference between different amplifiers SS and tubes.

However for the latter there are methods to measure and know without doubts whether X amplifier of Y kind change SQ in a noticeable way or not. It is also quite logical to think the design is good enough as to not change the FR in a bad way, and the distortion levels are low as well. There are always exceptions, nonetheless.