[Necrolic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmars78 /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's not about picking out which one is the most expensive. Price is completely irrelevant, it's about telling the 2 apart. We are saying all cables sound the same, you are saying they don't. So if I were to give you a cable, any cable, let you use it for 6 months, a year, whatever, get used to how it sounds, that if you took a DBT with said cable and other cables, you'd be able to pick the cable you are listening for every time?

Depends on the other cables. As I said, the differences are very subtle, so subtle it COULD be psychoacoustics, but there are differences. If the other cables were similarly built, most likely I could not.

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Necrolic /img/forum/go_quote.gif Depends on the other cables. As I said, the differences are very subtle, so subtle it COULD be psychoacoustics, but there are differences. If the other cables were similarly built, most likely I could not.

Have you actually done a DBT with your cables, and if so how did you do it and how many trials. Can you for instance identify (without foreknowledge) which cable you are listening to or tell when the cables have been switched or not switched.

The forums are full of reports of those who swear bind (pun) that they can hear the difference between different cables but to date no controlled test has ever verified this with two cables of the same length under properly controlled conditions. If you really can do this to say p < 0.05 then that is iconoclastic or worth investigating further anyway

 

[Catharsis]

I think the crux of the problem is that many people don't know how to conduct a double-blind / ABX test. People go on about this variable and that variable and all these exceptions when doing a valid ABX test with cables would an absolute breeze to design and execute.

Unless you're accustomed to reading studies involving experimental models, I wouldn't expect the average person to know much about DBT. I would expect most people to understand research methods to the the extent that I understand auto-mechanics, welding, soldering, and power tools.

 

[sohels]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catharsis /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think the crux of the problem is that many people don't know how to conduct a double-blind / ABX test.

This may be true. But then it is highly irresponsible for said people to claim success, to say the least.

 

[BoseFan]

If memory serves me right, certain people (personality types?) are more susceptible to the "placebo effect" by nature. Unfortunately I do not think I'm one of them (I could have cured my tinnitus and neck pain by now, damnit!) but I think even I might be influenced to hear some sort of difference if I purchased a $1,000 cable. My mood probably has the greatest factor in how I perceive sound, and even if I listen to the same song twice in a row on the same setup, I'm probably going to hear things differently the second time. Your setup is an ultimate limitation, of course, I just think that it pales in comparison to your own mind. Does this mean I'm going to go out and spend $1,000 for a cable? No, but if you have the money and don't mind if an objective discernable change in the sound has ever been found scientifically, go ahead.

If a person who once believed in cable differences goes on to do a DBT and is then unable to tell a difference, is everything rich, detailed, and liquid, or harsh and brittle? Or can they still go back to perceiving a psychoacoustical difference?

 

[sohels]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoseFan /img/forum/go_quote.gif If a person who once believed in cable differences goes on to do a DBT and is then unable to tell a difference, is everything rich, detailed, and liquid, or harsh and brittle? Or can they still go back to perceiving a psychoacoustical difference?

Most thoughtful! But I'm afraid I missed the point you're trying to make

 

[tmars78]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sohels /img/forum/go_quote.gif Most thoughtful! But I'm afraid I missed the point you're trying to make

What he is saying, or what I think he is trying to say is, if you believe cables make a difference, and that they brighten things up, open up the soundstage, what happens if you realize that they are all the same? Do things now sound harsh and muddy, or can you go back to making yourself believe the cables have made a difference.

 

[Uncle Erik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmars78 /img/forum/go_quote.gif What he is saying, or what I think he is trying to say is, if you believe cables make a difference, and that they brighten things up, open up the soundstage, what happens if you realize that they are all the same? Do things now sound harsh and muddy, or can you go back to making yourself believe the cables have made a difference.

Typically, cable believers place blame on testing methodology rather than consider that what they hear is the effect of placebo and/or suggestion.

The biggest stumbling block is for cable believers to accept test results. Any result that conflicts with their belief system is endlessly decried as biasedor somehow flawed. It is rare to find a believer who will consider he possibility that the difference they think they hear is entirely psychological. That is, in my opinion, where the debate breaks down.

 

[CrackBerry9000]

Seems strange some members proclaim to have an all encompassing answer when so many people get different results. Another thing is why would someone who beleives or someone who doesn't believe be interested in cable testing if that person has formed a set opinion already?

 

[Catharsis]

I hate to jump industries, but the same thing is highly prevalent in the "alternative / complementary" health sciences.

For example, there are a number of people in my family who think that ear candling works (ear candling is a process whereby a candle tube is lit on one end, and the other end placed in the ear. The resulting vacuum suction - which actually doesn't occur - is said to pull wax and impurities from the ear to improve certain conditions). Despite my repeated attempts to tell them that allstudies using proper methodology have failed to detect any measurable difference with ear candling, and in fact mounted evidence to disprove ear candling based on simple laws of physics and anatomy, my family and friends still insist it works.

"Well Paul feels better!", they say. To which I reply, "So do all the other folks (usually more than 50%) who receive the placebo treatment".

Lack of understanding of the scientific method is all.

 

[tmars78]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrackBerry9000 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Seems strange some members proclaim to have an all encompassing answer when so many people get different results. Another thing is why would someone who beleives or someone who doesn't believe be interested in cable testing if that person has formed a set opinion already?

While that is a good question, I believe it's because people need to be validated, which a DBT can never do, at least not for believers. Like Erik said, if the test doesn't work for believers, they'll simply bash the test. I think more DBTs need to be done on cables in order to try and stop the outrageous claims and prices cable companies make.

 

[sohels]

Several respected members with extensive experience are often convinced about the improvement that expensive cables make and give them strong recommendations in their reviews. Makes me wonder about the veracity of the rest of their claims, especially since almost every new piece of equipment is eulogized. But I digress.

 

[tmars78]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sohels /img/forum/go_quote.gif Several respected members with extensive experience are often convinced about the improvement that expensive cables make and give them strong recommendations in their reviews. Makes me wonder about the veracity of the rest of their claims, especially since almost every new piece of equipment is eulogized. But I digress.

Yes, I have only been here but a short while and have read some of these claims. I wonder how true they are. I'd love to see them all take a DBT and see the results. I am just waiting for people to come in and tell me I WILL NEVER notice a difference due to my inferior equipment. I have no problems at all with people bashing what I use and saying it isn't good enough, it helps me enjoy the music I listen to, which is all it needs to do. I have $15 cables. Which is what I would use no matter how much my system cost. I have read and enough and actually have been part of a DBT to know that it is money wasted. I know the test I was in wasn't done in the best manner, but still, I couldn't make out a difference.

 

[CrackBerry9000]

I just don't see why cables can't be filed under "personal preference". It seems as though you guys think this conversation is unique some how.

 

[haloxt]

Those foolish, unscientific people. Sadly the people who most need enlightening are also the people most invulnerable to wisdom. Do not wring your hands over it any longer, for I have seen the folly of teaching those imbued with invincible stupidity. And because of their foolishness, scientific men like you and I repeat post after post the truth, the self-evident truth which obviously is not false.

I have good news, fellow scientific brothers. The Hugging Saint Amma has promised to dedicate a small part of each day to listen to your endless complaints. Yes, her kindness is so great that she welcomes all to complain at her new social group, even the other side which is so obviously wrong it can hardly be forgiven, but she will forgive and she will not judge. In fact most of the time she will just listen and smile at you with her understanding smile and you will no longer get ulcers typing your treatises of how the other side is wrong. Your salvation awaits!

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