[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by brendon /img/forum/go_quote.gif I guess this is the reason why no DBT for cables has ever shown a discernible difference between cables.

That's often pretended, because contrary reports are just ignored and/or forgotten, because they can't be taken seriously anyway (in view of the result). One of them was from my part.

Quote:

I believe even Uncle Erik had a few HD650 replacement cables and even he couldn't find any differences in them. If this is so then these cable companies are really taking people for ride and doing something very unethical.

You're citing Uncle Eric almost literally, as if he was some kind of reference when it comes to audio or cables. I have and have tried many HD 650 aftermarket cables and have come to the opposite conclusion: They make a difference. But of course I'm not expecting to ever get cited by you.

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[tosehee]

To each of their own, I suppose.

I did a cable testing for HD800, and I DID experience the difference in sounds. Another person (googlephone) who did the testing with me also noticed the same.

But then, the differences aren't night and day. Also, I did test the Power Conditioner and even the better transport (Logitech Transporter), and I didn't pick up ANY difference to my dac/amp setup that was directly connected to wall wart.

 

[SP Wild]

I thought about taking the million dollar test.

Lets see, contact the guy, arrange for time and place, take time off work, purchase air tickets, arrange accomodation, transportation.

Hmmm then again I probably might fail because, for instance, even though my amps sound different, sometimes I think I am listening to one only to realise the phones are connected to the other - and there are 300 percent difference in price between the two - yeah I'd fail. On the slim chance I have a hope of success, no doubt the rules will be skewered for failure as simple pscyhology informs me that no one wants to give away money easily.

Its a lot of headache for a measily million. Plus I have no desire for fame or fortune - how embarrassing to be exposed on an international level that I am a neurotic nerd should I succeed - What will the babes think of me then? Some kinda excessive masturbator I suppose?

Nah, Just kiddin.

Cheers.

 

[FraGGleR]

I get it, really I do. Both sides, both faith systems. Just like religion and science, there is a need for both, even if both deny each other. I can believe that there is no difference in cables outside of aesthetics and perhaps shielding if you are in an electrically noise environment. But if everything is colored by our experiences and various emotional and psychological filters, then a fancy silver cable DOES make a difference if the purchaser thinks he hears one. In a hobby like this, where people are trying to get more enjoyment out of their musical listening, if there is any placebo at work, then it is OK.

I find myself unable to believe in any of the major religions, but I cannot deny their importance to people, so I do not actively work to prove them false. If someone gets comfort, and the ability to cope with a hard life throught their faith, why would you want to take that away from them? Same principle here. Even if I don't believe they make a scientific difference, I do believe they make a psychological one. And to the human psyche the difference is as real as the scientific one. For some, paying that $5000 for a power cable makes them feel better about their system, and allows them to enjoy their experience more. Good for them! They have found more joy! Why would you seek to ruin their joy?

DBT and science is hugely valuable and I respect your guys pursuit of the truth, but please temper your frustration and disdain of those who do not share your passion. We have all come here seeking to share our experiences with others and to find new ways to enhance our future experiences. If you build too much animosity towards folks who love music as much as you do, the community will fall apart, and then we will have nothing.

 

[tosehee]

There is no need to bring religion into this. That will only bring up more debate that is totally unnecessary~

With that said, I am religious person, but I don't believe in cable or power condition and etc.

 

[SP Wild]

I don't believe in religion or god - unless you consider power conditioning in the former and cables in....

I consider myself very scientific, weird huh?

Thank Audioquest we're all alive and arguing.

 

[SP Wild]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FraGGleR /img/forum/go_quote.gif I get it, really I do. Both sides, both faith systems. Just like religion and science, there is a need for both, even if both deny each other. I can believe that there is no difference in cables outside of aesthetics and perhaps shielding if you are in an electrically noise environment. But if everything is colored by our experiences and various emotional and psychological filters, then a fancy silver cable DOES make a difference if the purchaser thinks he hears one. In a hobby like this, where people are trying to get more enjoyment out of their musical listening, if there is any placebo at work, then it is OK. I find myself unable to believe in any of the major religions, but I cannot deny their importance to people, so I do not actively work to prove them false. If someone gets comfort, and the ability to cope with a hard life throught their faith, why would you want to take that away from them? Same principle here. Even if I don't believe they make a scientific difference, I do believe they make a psychological one. And to the human psyche the difference is as real as the scientific one. For some, paying that $5000 for a power cable makes them feel better about their system, and allows them to enjoy their experience more. Good for them! They have found more joy! Why would you seek to ruin their joy? DBT and science is hugely valuable and I respect your guys pursuit of the truth, but please temper your frustration and disdain of those who do not share your passion. We have all come here seeking to share our experiences with others and to find new ways to enhance our future experiences. If you build too much animosity towards folks who love music as much as you do, the community will fall apart, and then we will have nothing.

Now thats the spirit. Cheers, mate.

 

[brendon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's often pretended, because contrary reports are just ignored and/or forgotten, because they can't be taken seriously anyway (in view of the result). One of them was from my part. You're citing Uncle Eric almost literally, as if he was some kind of reference when it comes to audio or cables. I have and have tried many HD 650 aftermarket cables and have come to the opposite conclusion: They make a difference. But of course I'm not expecting to ever get cited by you. .

Yes you have a point. I cited Uncle Erik merely because I remember reading a previous post of his on his usage of different cables to add to ast's conclusion. I am sure there are others but I haven't read their posts on that matter.

I have no issues whatsoever in citing you (in future) since I am not a firm believer in anything (except God !) and I am willing to say I made a mistake if I am proved wrong.

However my major contention is this -

1. If there are differences in the sound of cables then they must be slight as most (since you say there are also tests where people can tell the difference) DBT tests have failed to show that the audience can tell the difference in cables.

2. If so then IMHO it makes little sense spending $300 - $400 on a simple cable which (arguably) makes little difference in sound. We should rather spend that money on better equipment that everyone agrees makes a difference in sound (headphone/amp/DAC) rather than spend money on something that may improve the sound.

If someone owns a Sennheier HE90 and wants to plonk $1000 on some super cable then by all means I wont say a thing !

However if someone owns a Sennheiser HD650 with a Little Dot III and wishes to get a replacement cable then I would always suggest that he/she get a better amp/DAC instead of a cable.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[wnmnkh]

So far no one has not made counter argument against my ultimate reasoning of need of snake-oil cables. As posted on other thread....

Quote:

Thing is, DBT/skeptics would destroy a large of portion of economy related to audio gear if people begin to listen to them. Since DBT alone will kill 95% of custom cable market, 90% of DAC market and probably 50% or so of amplifier market. But fortunately people hate DBT for stupid reasons.

I am not kidding. Look at the figures about these business. It's HUGE, and does good job giving people money to live (buy house, buy food for dogs and cats, pay gas bill for Hummer 2, etc)

 

[brendon]

^^ In that case lets legalize extortion and stealing ! It provides money and security to thousands of people !

IF cables don't do a thing to sound then what they are doing is very unethical and becomes tandem to fooling the customer.

 

[dex85]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wnmnkh /img/forum/go_quote.gif So far no one has not made counter argument against my ultimate reasoning of need of snake-oil cables. As posted on other thread.... I am not kidding. Look at the figures about these business. It's HUGE, and does good job giving people money to live (buy house, buy food for dogs and cats, pay gas bill for Hummer 2, etc)

another reason reviewers skip the DBT is it's time consuming and imagine what would they write about once they find out difference is zero or very subtle at best. pretty much all that catchy poetry that readers love would have to go. and no manufacturer will put an ad to the magazine that would dare to DBT $$$$ and ordinary cables and report their findings.

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by brendon /img/forum/go_quote.gif 1. If there are differences in the sound of cables then they must be slight as most (since you say there are also tests where people can tell the difference) DBT tests have failed to show that the audience can tell the difference in cables. 2. If so then IMHO it makes little sense spending $300 - $400 on a simple cable which (arguably) makes little difference in sound.

That's a valid point. But although I agree that the differences are subtle, they do matter to me, and I'm ready to spend a good amount of money for them.


Quote:

We should rather spend that money on better equipment that everyone agrees makes a difference in sound (headphone/amp/DAC) rather than spend money on something that may improve the sound.

There have been many DBTs where the test subjects couldn't reliably detect differences between amps or DACs, I even can't remember a positive test result.
.

 

[Happy Camper]

You assume someone with money is so ignorant of the purchase that they are getting nothing for their money by being tricked into it by a BS story? These systems are finely tuned. Cables are a fine tune. It doesn't make as much of a difference as a component change but they do offer a different presentation to someone acclimated to their own system.

Once you have found synergy with your components, you fine tune it with power cords, ICs and tubes/opamps. Is it worth the money, that's for each person to decide for themselves. Most of us who have tweaked their systems can immediately hear a change with a different IC.

It's not a contest of who has a bigger price tag so don't worry about how others spend their money. They don't care.

 

[tosehee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Camper /img/forum/go_quote.gif You assume someone with money is so ignorant of the purchase that they are getting nothing for their money by being tricked into it by a BS story? These systems are finely tuned. Cables are a fine tune. It doesn't make as much of a difference as a component change but they do offer a different presentation to someone acclimated to their own system. Once you have found synergy with your components, you fine tune it with power cords, ICs and tubes/opamps. Is it worth the money, that's for each person to decide for themselves. Most of us who have tweaked their systems can immediately hear a change with a different IC. It's not a contest of who has a bigger price tag so don't worry about how others spend their money. They don't care.

The synergy is far more important than individual components. I agree on that.

 

[brendon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Camper /img/forum/go_quote.gif You assume someone with money is so ignorant of the purchase that they are getting nothing for their money by being tricked into it by a BS story? These systems are finely tuned. Cables are a fine tune. It doesn't make as much of a difference as a component change but they do offer a different presentation to someone acclimated to their own system. Once you have found synergy with your components, you fine tune it with power cords, ICs and tubes/opamps. Is it worth the money, that's for each person to decide for themselves. Most of us who have tweaked their systems can immediately hear a change with a different IC. It's not a contest of who has a bigger price tag so don't worry about how others spend their money. They don't care.

You are absolutely right in saying that its your money and you have every right to spend it the way YOU choose. However the problem arises when someone else reads all the supposedly good things about cables and spends money on them. Now I am sure you will agree with me that cables & power cords (if at all they make a difference) can only tweak the sound. The main component which affects the sound is the headphone or speaker.

For instance in Jazz's case he has a HD 800 with some really nice amps. In his case it would make sense to spend some money on cables as in all probability they make a slight difference in sound.

However since head-fi has a lot of information to digest (and lots of conflicting information at that !), a newbie might spend his money on a cable when all he has is a LD Micro III with a Grado SR80. IMHO his money would have been better spent on a new headphone and/or amp before spending on a cable.

That is my main contention. Spend on components that matter the most first and once you have built up a system where further gains are minimal then by all means spend on your power cords and cables.

Since there is no conclusive proof proving that cables do nothing to sound I am open to the idea that they may play their part in tweaking the sound a bit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's a valid point. But although I agree that the differences are subtle, they do matter to me, and I'm ready to spend a good amount of money for them.

As I mentioned above, you already have a top notch system and I am still open to the idea that cables may make some slight differences. Plus its your money so you are free to do whatever you wish with it.

I would have probably done the same thing if I was in your shoes !

There have been many DBTs where the test subjects couldn't reliably detect differences between amps or DACs, I even can't remember a positive test result.
.

You have a point. However whether DACs and Amps make a difference in sound is not a debatable topic, its a hard fact which can be backed up scientifically with frequency graphs, SNR figures etc. Cables however don't have any scientific data to conclusively prove that they make a difference to sound.