[johnwmclean]

Thread continuation to enable DBT commentary.

Link below, for first part of the thread.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/ca...o-work-465063/

 

[wink]

Oh, John you're such a controversialist.
I must add that I was a great skeptic about hearing the difference between cables.
I have been accused since of having confirmation bias among other psychological
problems since I have changed my stance.
I change my mind because i heard the difference, and even swapped the cabled over about five times to confirm my discovery.

I believe that some people can't hear the difference because either:-
1/ theyre tone deaf,
2/ they've never trained their hearing to discriminate sound to such a fine level.

Some people are completely colour blind, some are partially colour blind. I have heard a husband argue strongly with his wife that there was no difference between two pieces of fabric. He said they were the same shade of blue, while she maintained one was blue and the other was blue/green.
Could not that be the same with hearing?

I've had a part-time DJ play a CD and a minidisc for me while I had my back turned. He reckoned there was no difference in the sonic quality of them.
I correctly stated which source was being played with a 100% score.
And no, they were not being played alternately.

I have a Sennheiser Lucas surround sound unit.
To set it up you adjust the unit in setup mode until you hear the sound produced coming directly in front of you.
I find it hard to set up for my hearing because about three settings are around the right place, but none is exactly where it should be.
When I listened to music through it, I had no problem hearing the soundstage, and all the other effects were easily recognised.
I hardly use it because I can hear a distinct loss of fidelity through it.
This loss is on par with the difference between the standard cable of my Sennheiser HD600 and my three aftermarket cables. Cardas Zu Mobius, and Equinox.
The Zu Mobius being silver definitely sounds brighter. Some would say tinnier.
DBT testing? That's a little difficult by yourself.

I laugh at that report of the coathanger wire being better than monster cable.
I looked up the site once where it was reported, but could find no info on who did it, where it was done or under what conditions it was conducted.
But then again, I guess there are people who would write out a statutory declaration that their buds they got with their ipod sound better than a good decent mid-fi headphone. If it was a Grado ....................

 

[TStewart422]

You're in Sound Science, now. We tend to accept objective data rather than subjective. Those darned MEASUREMENTS and DBT that are banned elsewhere. Show either of those if you mean to sway someone to your side of the argument.

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wink /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've had a part-time DJ play a CD and a minidisc for me while I had my back turned. He reckoned there was no difference in the sonic quality of them. I correctly stated which source was being played with a 100% score. And no, they were not being played alternately.

Since Minidisc uses ATRAC which involves lossy compression this is hardly earth-shattering, even assuming a sufficient number of trials and level matched playback

This latter is important as even two 16/44.1 systems can be audibly different if the output levels are sufficiently different, my own 3 CD players differ by up to 0.7db !

 

[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wink /img/forum/go_quote.gif Oh, John you're such a controversialist. I must add that I was a great skeptic about hearing the difference between cables. I have been accused since of having confirmation bias among other psychological problems since I have changed my stance.

It's not about "psychological problems." It's about being a perfectly normal human being.

Quote:

I change my mind because i heard the difference, and even swapped the cabled over about five times to confirm my discovery.

Which proves nothing, especially since you knew which cable you were listening to each time.

Quote:

I believe that some people can't hear the difference because either:- 1/ theyre tone deaf, 2/ they've never trained their hearing to discriminate sound to such a fine level.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And their system probably sucked too.

Look, there's already been nearly 30 years of hand-waving and boastful claims. There's no need for any more of it. When is someone finally going to step up to the plate and actually demonstrate their claimed abilities under controlled conditions and finally put this decades old debate to rest?

Talk is cheap.

se

 

[smeggy]

..and I believe there is still a $10,000 reward sitting unclaimed in a DBT challenge I recall reading a while ago.

 

[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by smeggy /img/forum/go_quote.gif ..and I believe there is still a $10,000 reward sitting unclaimed in a DBT challenge I recall reading a while ago.

You may be thinking of the mention I'd made about such an offer that was made some years ago on one of the rec.audio newsgroups. Not sure if that one's still in effect.

se

 

[Happy Camper]

This should be done at the National meet in Chicago. Cables and members will be there.

 

[CrackBerry9000]

Its a shame some people waste so much money on equipment when they can't even tell the difference between 2 different cables. And they preach about others wasting money on cables.

 

[Uncle Erik]

Until someone steps up with actual evidence, cables are nothing but nonsense.

Why hasn't any cable manufacturer offered anything approaching proof in 30 years of argument?

Think this one through. If a manufacturer was able to demonstrate an actual difference, then they could stomp their competitors and dominate the market. They could offer conclusive proof that they have the best product.

This could mean hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars in profits. Isn't the point of a company to make the most money? Don't you want to make the most possible money? Doesn't everyone?

If so, then why not conclusively prove that your product performs better? Look at every product on the market, not just cables. Every manufacturer strives for an advantage over the competition. Surely, there is competition in the cable market.

So it would make sense for a cable manufacturer to do the work to beat the ompetition. Yet in 30 years of controversy, this has not happened. Why is that?

 

[johnwmclean]

Erik, I would love to put all my faith into what you’ve stated, I really would. Hell I’d go lamp cord all the way and it’d save me a lot of agnst and money.

I choose not to have total skepticism over the debate, Lord Kelvin might have had a point - but to deny yourself the possibility of the unmeasurable leaves a bleak world intend. Proof is overrated.

 

[CrackBerry9000]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif Until someone steps up with actual evidence, cables are nothing but nonsense. Why hasn't any cable manufacturer offered anything approaching proof in 30 years of argument? Think this one through. If a manufacturer was able to demonstrate an actual difference, then they could stomp their competitors and dominate the market. They could offer conclusive proof that they have the best product. This could mean hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars in profits. Isn't the point of a company to make the most money? Don't you want to make the most possible money? Doesn't everyone? If so, then why not conclusively prove that your product performs better? Look at every product on the market, not just cables. Every manufacturer strives for an advantage over the competition. Surely, there is competition in the cable market. So it would make sense for a cable manufacturer to do the work to beat the ompetition. Yet in 30 years of controversy, this has not happened. Why is that?

So tell us what the specifications are for how your amp sounds. That way I won't have to audition one, I will know based on the specs you give me right? Man this is going to make choosing audio equipment easy. It may even put all the people making bad sounding equipment out of buisness since we can now just look at the specs and know how an amp will sound.

 

[MomijiTMO]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrackBerry9000 /img/forum/go_quote.gif So tell us what the specifications are for how your amp sounds. That way I won't have to audition one, I will know based on the specs you give me right? Man this is going to make choosing audio equipment easy. It may even put all the people making bad sounding equipment out of buisness since we can now just look at the specs and know how an amp will sound.

 

[Happy Camper]

Sorry UE, obstinate denial doesn't make you right any more than believers saying they don't care what others think makes them right.

Experience is a fact of life. To those with a curious itch, explore. Those who doubt, enjoy what you have.

I'd still go fishin with ya.

 

[Uncle Erik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrackBerry9000 /img/forum/go_quote.gif So tell us what the specifications are for how your amp sounds. That way I won't have to audition one, I will know based on the specs you give me right? Man this is going to make choosing audio equipment easy. It may even put all the people making bad sounding equipment out of buisness since we can now just look at the specs and know how an amp will sound.

How does this relate to cables?

If you want an idea of how an amp will interact with headphones, look at the output impedance curve of the amp. Now look at the impedance curve of the headphones you plan to use. That should tell you quite a bit about how they sound together. You can easily measure both, as well.

The difference with cables is that there's no way to look at the alleged sound. No one has ever found anything, even with years of controversy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Camper /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sorry UE, obstinate denial doesn't make you right any more than believers saying they don't care what others think makes them right. Experience is a fact of life. To those with a curious itch, explore. Those who doubt, enjoy what you have. I'd still go fishin with ya.

I don't agree that this is exploration and discovery. It's sort of like going through a well-mapped area of land and insisting that mountains and rivers are there that actually aren't.