[Captain]

I had a chat with a company today who modify HiFi, and and have been told not to bypass Black Gate's with film caps. They said instead to use the same type of Black Gate with 10% of original value. Any thoughts as I have bypassed some Black Gates in my pre with very small value film caps(0.01uf) as I have previously been told that this was the best option

Any thoughts.

 

[majkel]

They are mostly right but the most correct judge are your ears. Remove the film caps and see if something's changed. I wouldn't bypass Black Gates at all assuming they are correctly used (analog stage).

 

[Negatron]

I have yet to find a film cap or paper in oil that improves the BG's. In almost every case there is a degradation. A recomendation of 10% may be a bit over the top. I have found the HiQ 0.47 to be best for larger value and the HiQ 0.1 for smaller values. This all pertains to the N & NX series, I have not found the BG standard series to be as neutral as the uper end BG's. BTW, the difference with bypass as opposed to without, is very small indeed, even with higher resolution gear, so don't expect major differences from bypassed. Majkel's point about no bypass is not bad advice either. Also remember the breakin time is substantial. Fortunatly un-broken in they do not sound bad like a few upper tier caps, just not up to potential. Kind of fun to listen to for the first 100 hrs. for the small improvements.

 

[Captain]

Thanks

 

[vvs_75]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Negatron /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have yet to find a film cap or paper in oil that improves the BG's. In almost every case there is a degradation. A recomendation of 10% may be a bit over the top. I have found the HiQ 0.47 to be best for larger value and the HiQ 0.1 for smaller values. This all pertains to the N & NX series, I have not found the BG standard series to be as neutral as the uper end BG's. BTW, the difference with bypass as opposed to without, is very small indeed, even with higher resolution gear, so don't expect major differences from bypassed. Majkel's point about no bypass is not bad advice either. Also remember the breakin time is substantial. Fortunatly un-broken in they do not sound bad like a few upper tier caps, just not up to potential. Kind of fun to listen to for the first 100 hrs. for the small improvements.

Can you list film caps that you tried?
It is not even a theory but a fact that even average film capacitor in this aplication outperform the Best electrolytic ( BG HiQ ). I am not talking about Mundorf or V-cap caps. Capacitor like Auricap sound better than BG even without settle down (burn in).

 

[FallenAngel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vvs_75 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Can you list film caps that you tried? It is not even a theory but a fact that even average film capacitor in this aplication outperform the Best electrolytic ( BG HiQ ). I am not talking about Mundorf or V-cap caps. Capacitor like Auricap sound better than BG even without settle down (burn in).

I think he means that film caps that bypass BG NX sound worse than just the BG caps, not that BG are better at bypassing than film caos.

In my Millet MAX builds, I had a pair of BlackGate NX 680uF bypassed by a pair of 0.47uF Vitamin Q and I prefer this to BG alone.

 

[tomb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FallenAngel /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think he means that film caps that bypass BG NX sound worse than just the BG caps, not that BG are better at bypassing than film caos. In my Millet MAX builds, I had a pair of BlackGate NX 680uF bypassed by a pair of 0.47uF Vitamin Q and I prefer this to BG alone.

I definitely agree. Vitamin Q's work better bypassing BG NX's than just the BG's alone. That's definitely one combination that works.

The guys at Soniccraft also suggest that polystyrene is the best to bypass BG's - something like the RTX caps.

Other film caps are very unpredictable. With a typical or even boutique film cap, chances are great that one of two things will result: 1) the film cap has no effect whatsoever, or 2) the combination makes the sound worse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vvs_75 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Can you list film caps that you tried? It is not even a theory but a fact that even average film capacitor in this aplication outperform the Best electrolytic ( BG HiQ ). I am not talking about Mundorf or V-cap caps. Capacitor like Auricap sound better than BG even without settle down (burn in).

Of course, that's the case that film caps often sound better than most electrolytics. However, as FallenAngel states, it was a different question. Most of the time when talking about Black Gate electrolytics, you're already in the size range that's impractical for film caps.

Bypassing is something completely different and unpredictable. Auricaps, in particular, are an example of a cap that can be horrible bypassing a Black Gate. The typical Auricap has an exaggerated mids with rolled off bass and even rolled off highs compared to the relatively flat BG. In a circuit that needs the high value of uf's, bypassing a large BG with an Auricap or similar can be damaging to the overall frequency response.

 

[Negatron]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vvs_75 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Can you list film caps that you tried?

Do you want the last 37 years or just the past 10?
Quote:

Originally Posted by vvs_75 /img/forum/go_quote.gif It is not even a theory but a fact that even average film capacitor in this aplication outperform the Best electrolytic ( BG HiQ ).

I wouldn't call the HiQ the Best Electrolytic by any means in the BG line, My comments were only for bypassing BG N's & NX's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vvs_75 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am not talking about Mundorf or V-cap caps. Capacitor like Auricap sound better than BG even without settle down (burn in).

Many don't like the BG's because of their neutrality. If there are warts, they are not going to be hidden by any warmth or bloat. The electron transfer characteristics of a 'normal' EL cap have nothing in common with how a BG functions.
I will jump for joy when someone comes up with an Jupitor, Mundorf or Auricap that is in the multi-100's of uf range & that will fit in sonething smaller than a Fiat. As a rule I hate Electrolytics, but they are a nessesary evil. I also like Auricaps very much, and have used them for years but they are NOT neutral.

With all due respect, I really don't care much for quoting theory, but frequently find someones 'facts' and the art of High resolution Audio design to have very little in common.

But as always, mine is only one opinion in a sea of thousands.

 

[Negatron]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomb /img/forum/go_quote.gif I definitely agree. Vitamin Q's work better bypassing BG NX's than just the BG's alone. That's definitely one combination that works. The guys at Soniccraft also suggest that polystyrene is the best to bypass BG's - something like the RTX caps. Other film caps are very unpredictable. With a typical or even boutique film cap, chances are great that one of two things will result: 1) the film cap has no effect whatsoever, or 2) the combination makes the sound worse. Of course, that's the case that film caps often sound better than most electrolytics. However, that wasn't the question. Most of the time when talking about Black Gate electrolytics, you're already in the size range that's impractical for film caps. Bypassing is something completely different and unpredictable. Auricaps, in particular, are an example of a cap that can be horrible bypassing a Black Gate. The typical Auricap has an exaggerated mids with rolled off bass and even rolled off highs compared to the relatively flat BG. In a circuit that needs the high value of uf's, bypassing a large BG with an Auricap or similar can be damaging to the overall frequency response.

The use of PS caps for BG bypass is something I have tried and had success with, but for the size. TomB you may have run across the Mil spec non-inductive P-Styrene caps I have tried with BG's, 10000pf about the dia of a dime.

I think Inductance plays a role with bypassing the BG's and that may be the key with the Vit Q's. The Q's are one of those cases that actually measure as well as they sound.

This is all voodoo I think.

 

[04BluMach]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FallenAngel /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think he means that film caps that bypass BG NX sound worse than just the BG caps, not that BG are better at bypassing than film caos. In my Millet MAX builds, I had a pair of BlackGate NX 680uF bypassed by a pair of 0.47uF Vitamin Q and I prefer this to BG alone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomb /img/forum/go_quote.gif I definitely agree. Vitamin Q's work better bypassing BG NX's than just the BG's alone. That's definitely one combination that works. The guys at Soniccraft also suggest that polystyrene is the best to bypass BG's - something like the RTX caps. Other film caps are very unpredictable. With a typical or even boutique film cap, chances are great that one of two things will result: 1) the film cap has no effect whatsoever, or 2) the combination makes the sound worse.

You weren't completely clear of the exact circuit application the BG's are intended (ie Signal Path Coupling, Power Supply, or auido/digital Power decoupling).

For High Value Power Supply and low value Power Decoupling applications, it is a nearly unanimous chorus to avoid bypassing the high end BG's since it typically leads to a detriminent of SQ.

The responses are all related to the application as Signal Path Coupling capacitors using BG N, NX's and HiQ NX's. For coupling into high impedence loads, typical Cap values iareapprox 10-47uf using a HiQ NX BG. If you want to try a bypass - try the BG recommended parallel HiQ, the .01HiQ NX, .01uf VitaQ PIO, or .01uf polystyrene. Typically, most tweakers/modders don't bypass to avoid the potential SQ degradation caused by "smearing" due to loss of phase coherence possible due to bypasses. But you can give it a whirl in your application...

For coupling into high impedence loads where the typical higher value BG N & NX caps are used (100 to 1000uf) typically most recommend no bypass due to possibly causing smearing since the top end performance of the BGs are already so good. As indicated, the Millet MAX community has found that the VitQ PIO's (.22 to .47uf) as bypasses have shown excellent performance. Additionally, as indicated the MultiCap RTX's are said to sing well with the BG's also as bypass caps.

You are really talking the last few percent of perfomance with the bypassing of BG's in output coupling applications. So be prepared to experiment with your exact application...

Also, we are all assuming that you are referring to the high end BG's (N, NX, VK, WK, etc) not the Standards which are a completely different subject and of more questional performance/value when compared with other excellent Audio Caps.

 

[04BluMach]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Negatron /img/forum/go_quote.gif ..... This is all voodoo I think.

Ain't it the truth.......

Goes with the BG Territory!!!

I am beginning to fell like an Honarary member of the Four Cap Bambinos....
tomb, Negatron, FallenAngel, & ME!!!

As always - if a Film Fits and/or you can afford it
....or if you are like Ferrari - & Cost doesn't matter and you make it fit no matter how large

... Then USE IT!

 

[tomb]

... ting tang walla walla bing bang

 

[AudioCats]

Seems like my experience will be a lone case here.... I use NX and N in the Stax SRM-001's input stage, paralleled with a pair of 0.15uf polyprop. With just the NX/N the sound is very strange, losing lots of details. The polyprop by itself actaully sound pretty nice, I added the BG just to help the low end and vibrations a little, but that also muddles the sound slightly. I'd rather have just a large value polyprop, but the limited room inside the little Stax amp dictates the use of electrolytics.....

Don't get me wrong, the NX has the best clarity in all the electrolytics I have tried (which an't that many, but still), and is likely the best choice as large value output caps.

 

[vvs_75]

Sorry OP, my bad I didn't get it at the first time.

 

[Negatron]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomb /img/forum/go_quote.gif ... ting tang walla walla bing bang

'Purple' Caps? You know where there are purple caps and you ain't tellin' ?
Well Ooo Eee, Ooo Ah-Ah!