[LugBug1]

Hi I'm new and this is my first thread so be gentle!
 
This has been puzzling me for a while, If you have a direct line from your digital device either mp3 or laptop into an outboard dac/amp thus bypassing the sound card and headphone-out, does it matter how good your player is, if all it is doing is sending the 0's and 1's and bypassing the device's sound signature. If this is the case should we not be spending money on amps and dacs instead of players, as any player will do??
 
Any light on this would be appreciated thanks 

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[MadCow]

Well, if you perform any sort of preprocessing (EQ, DSP effects, crossfeed, etc), then the player matters.
 
Also, there is the (arguable) issue of jitter....

 

[LugBug1]

Thanks Madcow that makes sense, I appreciate that any EQ etc will affect the sound but lets say I am a purist and I'm after an unaffected signal so that I can appreciate the original sound as close as poss.
 
Ive always believed that all players either CD or mp3 etc that process digital information only do that. The original data is not going to be affected until it is either manipulated by effects or for the sake of this argument amplified through speakers. Therefore it is the characteristics of the amplifier, cables, speakers that give the sound signature?
 
I have a cheap notebook and a more expensive laptop and there is no difference at all when I use them through the same amplifier. when bypassing the pc's soundcard.
 
Could this then be that the same digital file played through any dedicated player is going to sound the same when it is played through the same amp etc. 
 
 
Ofcourse the player will have to do a good job of converting the signal, and without jitters etc. oversampling for instance should provide more detail. 
 
as far as portable players go I suppose you are going to be stuck with whatever amp is inside it unless you go direct from the inbuilt converter to an outboard amp. Therefore I would like to know if anyone can hear a substantial difference using the same music file between for example, a Cowon or Sony and then an Ipod shuffle or cheap Samsung through the same headphone amp directly.
 
My point in a nutshell is then... any player is only going to be as good as the amp inside. Most fellow head-f ier's agree that a headphone amp is essential so why not buy a cheap player and get an expensive amp? in the first place.
 
I think I'm arguing with myself now so I'm going to go... my head hurts
 
 
 
 
 

 

[LevA]

Quote:

 
as far as portable players go I suppose you are going to be stuck with whatever amp is inside it unless you go direct from the inbuilt converter to an outboard amp. Therefore I would like to know if anyone can hear a substantial difference using the same music file between for example, a Cowon or Sony and then an Ipod shuffle or cheap Samsung through the same headphone amp directly.
 
My point in a nutshell is then... any player is only going to be as good as the amp inside. Most fellow head-f ier's agree that a headphone amp is essential so why not buy a cheap player and get an expensive amp? in the first place.
 

you seem to be confusing portable players DAC with their amp..portable players convert digital to analogue (DAC) and then this analogue sound gets amplified by its internal amp -> to headphone out. 
 
with a line out, such as the ones in ipod or other DAPs that has one, you are bypassing the amp, but you're still converting digital to analogue using the internal DAC chip of the device. so technically, if you match your portable player with an external amp, you still will get different results in sound because each player has different DAC chip doing the converting. 
 
in case of comuputers, your guessing is correct. you are bypassing the computers Digital to analogue conversion by sending it out through usb or optical, and using the DAC/AMP on your external portable unit. 
 
so a player is not only good as the amp inside, but also its DAC chip.
 

 

[Bennyboy71]

What this clever chap said.  It's the DAC that effectively translates the digital 1s and Os of the recording into analogue so you can put it in your ears and hear music etc. 
 
 
Quote:

Quote:

 
as far as portable players go I suppose you are going to be stuck with whatever amp is inside it unless you go direct from the inbuilt converter to an outboard amp. Therefore I would like to know if anyone can hear a substantial difference using the same music file between for example, a Cowon or Sony and then an Ipod shuffle or cheap Samsung through the same headphone amp directly.
 
My point in a nutshell is then... any player is only going to be as good as the amp inside. Most fellow head-f ier's agree that a headphone amp is essential so why not buy a cheap player and get an expensive amp? in the first place.
 

you seem to be confusing portable players DAC with their amp..portable players convert digital to analogue (DAC) and then this analogue sound gets amplified by its internal amp -> to headphone out. 
 
with a line out, such as the ones in ipod or other DAPs that has one, you are bypassing the amp, but you're still converting digital to analogue using the internal DAC chip of the device. so technically, if you match your portable player with an external amp, you still will get different results in sound because each player has different DAC chip doing the converting. 
 
in case of comuputers, your guessing is correct. you are bypassing the computers Digital to analogue conversion by sending it out through usb or optical, and using the DAC/AMP on your external portable unit. 
 
so a player is not only good as the amp inside, but also its DAC chip.
 

 

[LugBug1]

So the dac is as important as the amp in creating the sound signature.
 
In that case the actual process of converting the 0's and 01's must change or characterize the sound aswell, I always thought that it would only prepare the sound i.e prepare it but not add anything to it; only convert the data into the analogue signal correctly or badly but the information would always stay the same unless some data was lost during the process. This would then affect the strength of signal/sound but wouldnt change the character of it?
 
I appreciate the feedback on this, 
 
Thanks 

 
 
 
    

 

[Bennyboy71]

There are a myriad of manufacturers out there all making different DACs for home use that claim to be better than others at converting those digits mate - just check out any hi-fi magazine or website for conflicting reviews and kit ranging from budget prices to four figure costs and rising. Its the same with any component from amp to speakers. In the portable market, the scene is less crowded but you can still find a fair few different dac units you can hook up to your laptop or pmp if you so wish.

 
Quote:

So the dac is as important as the amp in creating the sound signature.
 
In that case the actual process of converting the 0's and 01's must change or characterize the sound aswell, I always thought that it would only prepare the sound i.e prepare it but not add anything to it; only convert the data into the analogue signal correctly or badly but the information would always stay the same unless some data was lost during the process. This would then affect the strength of signal/sound but wouldnt change the character of it?
 
I appreciate the feedback on this, 
 
Thanks 

 
 
 
    

 

[Jalo]

Well, actually, Lugbug has a very good question he just didn't know about the Dac but his question is still unanswered.  I just asked the same question and have not receive any feedback yet in the Cypher Lab Solo thread.  The Solo is a device that can take the digital signal out of Ipod/Iphone/Ipad , it has a very good master clock to reclock all the 0s and 1s to reduce jitter, it also has a reference level Wolfson Dac to convert the digital signal to analog out to any amp.  So my question is similar to Lugbug if I use the the Solo to connect to my Ipod 7g, nano 6g, ipad, iphone 3gs, or iphone 4g will I get the same sound?  There has been report that different generations of ipod/itouch/iphone sound different because of the different dac and/or amp inside.  That is why the imod sound better.  In a boarder sense, if you have a reference set up of DAC and Amp and if you connect any player that has a digital out to your setup and thereby bypassing the Dac and amp inside the player, will you get the same sound?  There are many player like sony, iriver etc that can output a digital signal for outboard reclock/processing.

 

[78tball]

Regarding a laptop as source, it is still possible to perform certain alterations to the audio out via USB to the external DAC such as bass boost, virtual surround, room corrections, etc.  If you want a neutral sound signature heading into the DAC/amp, you need to ensure that these options are not enabled on the laptop's playback device associated with your external DAC.  I thought that the DAC was fed a pure signal, but discovered that this is not the case.