[ashtray9]

The one thing I have gotten from these threads is that many people underestimate the brain's ability to change and adapt. Seriously, the brain is just one hugely complex [and ever changing] perception machine.

We have schizophrenics and psychopaths among our society, but it isn't possible that your brain is perceiving sound as it so desires?

 

[MomijiTMO]

Well that's part of perception. I like green and purple. I don't like yellow or orange. Is green or purple a better colour than yellow or orange? Ridiculous to even consider making that statement. Same can apply to audio. What about colour blind people? There sure are people who might perceive some sounds differently etc. I have no idea but you would have to be the BIGGEST closed minded fool to think that sounds are interpreted the same way by all people. It's also possible that the brain gets experienced with the sound from a headphone and can translate more of it whereas before it was not able to get a fluent sound. A speech in broken English doesn't sound impressive compared to someone who is fluent in English.

 

[Happy Camper]

This is one of the reasons why we hold meets. Next meet you attend, do some experimenting. Logic and perception are often at odds in a subjective discussion. Only way to know for sure is try it for yourself.

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Camper /img/forum/go_quote.gif Logic and perception are often at odds in a subjective discussion.

Most often in that case perception is faulty.

Very frequently you see discussions of digital devices where a person will say that A has a more extended high end than B but when they are measured the FRs are utterly identical i.e flat, as digital devices should be, otherwise they are faulty or tweako/NOS stuff.

Thanks but I will trust logic over "sighted" perception 99/100 times.

But DBTS are better still as they remove human bias including expectations !

Meets like showroom demos are thus intrinsically flawed.

 

[MomijiTMO]

Yes, the same can be said about oh so many things. My favourite perception test was regarding colour of products. In this well known marketing research, identical cups of coffee were placed on different coloured paper.

The Coffee Experiment
1. Cup of coffee placed next to a brown container....75% said it was too strong
2. Cup of coffee placed next to a red container...85% said it was the richest
3. Cup of coffee next to blue container... Nearly 100% said it was mild
4. Cup of coffee next to a yellow container...seen as weak

So in this, perception of coffee was influenced by the surroundings. The coloured pieces of paper have no logical connection to the coffee right so do we just absorb the surroundings? What about other people's beliefs? This in my opinion shows us trying to comment on things we can't comment on so we try and find fault. When reading headphone amp reviews, you see a lot of comparisons and a large set of vocabulary used which can lead you to believe that the distance between that 1k product and that .5k product are massive. Upon hearing them yourself, you are hard pressed to separate them. It's a lot more confusing when comparing 2 competing products. A major fault with people is trying to separate two items using 'audiophile vocab'. I don't see enough people here saying they can't categorically state which is better. Sure, you might lean towards one. It's seen as poor reviewing if you don't say that Product A is superior to Product B because <insert 500 word of fluff review>. Sure you can find differences in some parts but I mean but it's not like listening to different languages where there is a significant difference.

Very interesting stuff.

 

[Uncle Erik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nick_charles /img/forum/go_quote.gif Meets like showroom demos are thus intrinsically flawed.

And that doesn't even include suggestion and the influence of others at meets.

If someone is standing there telling you what you're going to perceive, you usually perceive it.

Meets are more about the social aspect, anyway. Meeting and talking to other members is about the best thing in the world. You also learn a great deal - five minutes of conversation will get you a lot more information than trading posts and PMs. You can check out some of the hardware, too, but meets are usually noisy and distracting. And I love meets for that.

 

[KONAKONA]

Mental burn in here, just saying hi.

 

[Ham Sandwich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MomijiTMO /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, the same can be said about oh so many things. My favourite perception test was regarding colour of products. In this well known marketing research, identical cups of coffee were placed on different coloured paper. The Coffee Experiment 1. Cup of coffee placed next to a brown container....75% said it was too strong 2. Cup of coffee placed next to a red container...85% said it was the richest 3. Cup of coffee next to blue container... Nearly 100% said it was mild 4. Cup of coffee next to a yellow container...seen as weak

That would never work on me. My coffee pallet would never be fooled by such nonsense.

I know weak and mild when I taste it. And there is no such thing as too strong. You can't fool me.

What would work for me? Put me in a Starbucks and any coffee (even if it's not starbucks coffee) will taste like burnt beans or weak beans. Put me in a coffee shop that serves a ristretto espresso with abundant crema and all the coffee will taste good. Let me see the coffee being brewed in a french press and see an abundance of bloom and it is going to taste better.

The power of suggestion at a meet is real. Last meet I went to someone plugged a Joe Grado HP1000 in my amp, gave it a listen and said the combo didn't suit the headphone. That was my first experience to hear a HP1000 and it was under conditions where someone had just said it doesn't work well with this particular amp. Totally not fair. Did it sound good to me? Hard to know. I'd never heard the HP1000 before and had nothing to compare it against. Did it have magic when I gave it a listen? No. Was that due to the power of suggestion given to me right before I listened? Probably yes.

 

[Ham Sandwich]

I heard what I attribute to burn-in when I got my Denon D2000. First listen the bass was bloomy and midbass was too much. That went away after allowing the cans to burn in with pink noise and Infected Mushroom. After a day of that the cans were better. That experience makes the idea of burn in for headphones plausible. After 20ish hours I was happy with the headphones and heard no more burn in effects beyond that. I have nothing to believe that burn in could continue for 200+ hours as some claim.

But... I had no control sample. No testing. Nothing but my ears and a possible subconscious desire for the headphones to improve.

I've yet to hear for myself any burn in effects with my solid state electronics. With the exception of one piece of gear that failed after about a week of use (something literally must have burned in inside). After getting that replaced with an identical model unit the sound has been the same from beginning to now.

So for me:
Burn in effects for headphone drivers for under 20 hours: plausible
Burn in effects for headphone drivers for over 20 hours: unconfirmed
Burn in effects for solid state electronics: unconfirmed unless you include infant mortality failures

 

[xnor]

1) Get new headphones.
2) Measure them.
3) Burn in for a couple of hours.
4) Measure them again.
5) See there's no difference.
6) Question answered.

such graphs can be found on teh interwebs

 

[terriblepaulz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnor /img/forum/go_quote.gif 1) Get new headphones. 2) Measure them. 3) Burn in for a couple of hours. 4) Measure them again. 5) See there's no difference. 6) Question answered. such graphs can be found on teh interwebs

Step 7 (or is it 6a): attribute any perceived differences to mental rather than physical processes.

 

[h.rav]

^ Agreed

 

[Ham Sandwich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnor /img/forum/go_quote.gif 1) Get new headphones. 2) Measure them. 3) Burn in for a couple of hours. 4) Measure them again. 5) See there's no difference. 6) Question answered. such graphs can be found on teh interwebs

Is it possible to do waterfall plots on headphones? I've never seen such plots for headphones. I don't know how those plots are physically measured. Maybe something in the process makes it incompatible for headphone measuring?

A waterfall plot would be more telling than a simple frequency response graph for the types of differences I heard in my Denon in the bass and midbass before and after their supposed burn-in.

An example of the type of waterfall plot in the attached image.

 

[xnor]

It's possible. For example, see k701 review

 

[Ham Sandwich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnor /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's possible. For example, see k701 review

Then people need to get to it and start doing waterfall spectral decay graphs for various headphones pre-burn-in and post-burn-in. Why doesn't headroom do waterfall graphs?

Graphs still only tell part of the story about how a headphone or component sounds. I'm not going to base a headphone purchase based solely from graphs.