Breaking-in headphones, the final verdict!
Apr 5, 2018 at 1:22 AM Post #376 of 685
Material properties do not scale linearly with size. A big speaker is categorically not a big, small speaker.

Sure. There's probably an inverse square law in there. There usually is when things don't line up at first glance.

I'd also agree that balanced armature iems, ribbons and planars also follow different degrees of effect. But they are all still mechanical. Only an ionophone is not inherently mechanical, and maybe there the plasma does something, but I'll leave that to a more imaginative forum.

So we are still speculating and giving anecdotally unconvincing accounts to the unbelievers. I hope in the next few months to be able to talk with a design team of very high reputation and see if they have any evidence. They are well known for their scientific rigour, and well executed double blind listening tests. Unfortunately I may not be able name them and publish results, which will give riggle room for the nay-sayers.
 
Apr 5, 2018 at 2:31 AM Post #378 of 685
Not everything no. There is phase, inpulse, group delay, diffraction, resonance, noise, modulation, compression.

Distortion is defined as sound that is not a part of the original signal. Response relates to frequencies. Dynamics are related to amplitude. Some things are blends of a couple of these aspects. I suppose you could argue noise is a separate thing. I'll accept that.

I think you guys are so dedicated to your conclusion, you aren't thinking logically. Show me some evidence that a pattern exists indicating burn in is real. Measurements, controlled listening tests, etc. I'm happy to change my position if you can point to a more convincing argument. Until then, I'll stick with the most likely answer to the question. It may be right. It may be wrong. But it's more likely to be correct until evidence to the contrary is presented.

Just claiming someone else told you something and you believe them may be enough for you. You can feel free to believe them. Don't expect anyone else to without all the information though.

Lmao, nice use of the word 'linearly' there. Please restate your reasoning.

How about a molehill isn't the same as a mountain? Scale counts.

I have experienced in blind listening and those figures I linked to showing substancial changes in driver performance measurements in the first 20-100 hours.

What frequencies? What amplitude? Distortion? Size of sample? Citation please.

Next question... How does this prove headphones burn in? See above.
 
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Apr 5, 2018 at 2:42 AM Post #379 of 685
Just claiming someone else told you something and you believe them may be enough for you. You can feel free to believe them. Don't expect anyone else to without all the information though.

Guess you must have missed this. Maybe you forgot. Attack it all you want, it's more evidence than you actually have to support your belief, isn't it?

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Apr 5, 2018 at 2:43 AM Post #380 of 685
What is "this"?

EDIT: Ah. You added that after I dozed off. We already discussed that. It raises more questions. The shift isn't progressive. There's one point where it reacts more like a mistake in measurement than burning in. I'd like to see that test repeated with some additional constraints to eliminate the problem of achieving consistent measurements without pads interfering. I'd also like to see the test done with a bigger sample. It's possible that this particular set of headphones was defective and would continue shifting and degrading as time went on.

By the way, as a chart, it looks pretty jaggy. But if you look at the dB scale there, only the biggest spikes would be audible at all. In music the threshold is around 3dB.

heading to bed now.
 
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Apr 5, 2018 at 7:27 AM Post #383 of 685
That's exactly what you're doing though, man. A big speaker is a big small speaker, also a big medium size, but you're saying there's something about the small speaker that makes it different, just because you've found them hard to measure. That's not a reason. The two things, size and difficulty measuring aren't proven to be related, let alone difficulty measuring and whether they break in or not. All that's a 'gut feeling' on your part.
not gut feeling, lack of evidence or even some anecdotal evidence suggesting they may not behave the same way after all. I also expect the foundations to be the same for all dynamic drivers obviously, but I can't just dismiss the changes I got from experiment being so small I can't be sure they're real or my rig acting up. in comparison, pad wear and moving the headphone on the head have impacts on sound that are much more significant. that's why I have no issue measuring them. so I try to think about a reason but that's only conjecture. I'm thinking about all the differences in size, material, shapes, how headphones need to move a lot less off axis to provide the same level of sound at the ear... all that may change what's going on over time, maybe it takes much longer, maybe it's a done deal after 1mn and just the tests at the factory get us over that period. maybe it happens the same way just at much lower magnitude and that's why there isn't much measurement to be found on the subject. the idea of driver burn in could still be somehow valid, but it's not a cult(I think?), I don't have to believe without any sort of evidence and I don't find unreasonable to treat headphone and loudspeakers differently. the dramatic lack of evidence for headphones probably isn't explained only by how it's a little annoying to remove the pads before making measurements. I'm inclined to think there is more to it.

in any case, I'm a scientist wannabe, bring me evidence and I'll consider it. bring me consistent repeatable evidence and I'll think of a new model including it. changing my mind is both as difficult and as simple as that. bring me empty claims and you're wrong no matter what the claim is. because empty claims shouldn't exist.
 
Apr 5, 2018 at 9:49 AM Post #384 of 685
You must be using the royal "we" because others may have been reading less selectively. Your article even sites a guy at Shure who agrees that larger headphones may change during burn in.

Your confidence is not shared by myself, especially as I have experienced in blind listening and those figures I linked to showing substancial changes in driver performance measurements in the first 20-100 hours. Perhaps you don't want to take this information into account over your own beliefs.

I don't claim that all speakers can't experience some changes over time. Some large home speakers might see considerable changes, but these variations typically occur in the first few hours or even minutes of use according to what I have read by some manufacturers. This is not the same thing as a 100 hour burn-in with pink noise of a headphone driver that is typically no more than 50mm in diameter or much smaller and using different material than would be found in a home speaker.

Sure, some larger headphone drivers made with certain materials could see measurable changes over time, but I have not seen any reliable evidence to suggest with any confidence that these changes could be audibly identifiable when adding in head placement and pad wear. We don't even know if a new haircut causes a greater measurable change that might overshadow any small changes with the driver. Over and over the information that I find shows that the headphones are basically measuring the same from day one unless something breaks or noticeably wears out.

It seems like burn-in of headphones is a clear waste of my time and I would not recommend it. Anyone can have their own opinion, but I haven't seen any proof to change my mind about it. The problem that I see is that many people conflate what can occur with larger home speakers to their tiny headphone drivers.
 
Apr 5, 2018 at 10:22 AM Post #385 of 685
Lmao, nice use of the word 'linearly' there. Please restate your reasoning.

A 50% larger speaker has to have a cone that is much more than 50% more rigid to exhibit the same breakup. The mass of the cone will also increase more than 50%, requiring a more powerful voice coil and permanent magnet setup. Its power consumption will scale up more than 50% as well. That's what I mean by non-linearly.
 
Apr 5, 2018 at 11:07 AM Post #386 of 685
should we just accept an effect, and even better, accept it is audible and significant because it seems reasonable? is that the modern way of finding evidence?
for speakers, I've seen a bunch of data like @jagwap posted, those seem convincing(with the assumption that the experiments were done properly) and suggest measurable impact on various speaker drivers. with much fewer possible causes for sound change on speakers, it becomes easier to suggest causality. but while I've seen evidence suggesting change, I haven't seen much of anything about the greater details you see as an obvious result.
I also haven't seen the same sort of data for headphones. all I seem to find are poorly done experiments that neglect to consider other known causes of change by ignorance or on purpose to try and prove a point no matter what. what I've seen done with a little more care, always confirms change in sound over time for the headphone as a whole, but nothing of significance for the driver itself. my own attempt resulted in getting more significant changes from pretty much anything other than the driver alone. measuring at night would get me more variations than what I seem to be able to identify otherwise as being solely caused by the driver. so when I read claims of causality between audible difference and driver burn in based on subjective impressions, I can't help but facepalm. even if I was to ignore all the biases, placebo, and memory inaccuracy, I would still facepalm when reading those comments because they are measurably irrational. changes do happen for plenty of reasons, driver burn in is only one of them and seems to be consistently less significant than new pads, the room temperature, the source, if we played music too loud for the headphone specs, or if we dropped the headphone on the floor a few times.

as for your post specifically, the diaphragm becoming easier to move and bend over time, again that seems logical. how that will lead to the driver being more efficient should absolutely be measurable, but where are those measures for headphones? when I get consistent data on that, then and only then I'll agree with you and move on to the next step, finding out if and how audible those typical changes can be for a listener. but when you decide that this effect results in greater details. where did you get that idea?
why not lower mechanical damping leading to worst control, increased ringing and distortions, or plain shift in the resonance frequency leading to a change that isn't necessarily better or worst? that would seem just as reasonable to me it if were to happen. I guess how strong an electrical damping we have, how light the diaphragm is, and how open the headphone design is, would ultimately decide if we go toward better or worst fidelity. but all that is conjecture based on the hastily picked axiom that we'd get significant impact from the loosening of the material on a headphone. we can have ideas and make guesses all day long, and we should, but that alone doesn't demonstrate anything. experiment and measurements will provide the data for that. yet, not much to be seen as evidence of something so apparently obvious when following your reasoning.


are you talking about headphones? I know I'm annoying but I could easily confirm small changes in my speakers with measurements, I never had such an easy time with headphones and IEMs once I removed pads, tips and placement from the equation. so I feel that headphone do deserve to be treated separately. maybe even individual drivers would deserve their own study, as more and more have shapes to reinforce the diaphragm at key places and facilitate movements at others. it's a little frustrating to think that manufacturers have all the data we need, but I'm here playing with one or 2 samples of a model at a time, never getting any statistically relevant result. and debating with people who mistake gut feeling for evidence is really not helping us going anywhere productive.
Well that was extremely verbose. In my opinion the logic applies to headphones as well as it does to speakers or any other moving diaphragm. As far as evidence goes, when it comes to sound measurements don’t tell the whole story. Exceptionally flat measured response has sounded extremely dry and lifeless in numerous pieces of equipment I have heard. Perception in actually reality when it comes to audio, get used to it.
 
Apr 5, 2018 at 11:43 AM Post #387 of 685
Well that was extremely verbose. In my opinion the logic applies to headphones as well as it does to speakers or any other moving diaphragm. As far as evidence goes, when it comes to sound measurements don’t tell the whole story. Exceptionally flat measured response has sounded extremely dry and lifeless in numerous pieces of equipment I have heard. Perception in actually reality when it comes to audio, get used to it.

This is a load of crap. This is exactly the kind of crap not tolerated in "Sound Science". Perception is NOT reality in audio, get used to it.

It's amazing to me, utterly amazing that the audiophile world is essentially an exploitation of one of humanity's most fallible senses; defrauding people of *millions* of dollars and people will continue to defend it and not in any way attempt to validate it.
 
Apr 5, 2018 at 12:15 PM Post #388 of 685
This is a load of ****. This is exactly the kind of **** not tolerated in "Sound Science". Perception is NOT reality in audio, get used to it.

It's amazing to me, utterly amazing that the audiophile world is essentially an exploitation of one of humanity's most fallible senses; defrauding people of *millions* of dollars and people will continue to defend it and not in any way attempt to validate it.
Amen!
 
Apr 5, 2018 at 12:36 PM Post #389 of 685
Well that was extremely verbose. In my opinion the logic applies to headphones as well as it does to speakers or any other moving diaphragm. As far as evidence goes, when it comes to sound measurements don’t tell the whole story. Exceptionally flat measured response has sounded extremely dry and lifeless in numerous pieces of equipment I have heard. Perception in actually reality when it comes to audio, get used to it.
so we just accept a concept without any clue about the actual impact or magnitude of said impact. and when we have a hard time measuring change to support this allegedly audible improvement, we just go make up some excuse about how measurements don't tell the whole story. that way we're always right, and there is certainly no need to ever second guess ourselves. "all is for the best in the best of all possible worlds". meanwhile our newly acquired gear is spending days or weeks on a headstand playing loud noise instead of us enjoying it. all quite possibly for the glory of his majesty placebo the third.
seems like a really great plan, but I think I'll stick with skepticism and wait for actual evidence that I would benefit from getting in on the rituals.


ps: I've already asked this to someone else not long ago, if you know of a variation in sound that can be positively identified under controlled listening test but fails to be measured, please tell me all about it. this seems to be one of those creatures of legend, everybody talks of it, but nobody seems to have actually encountered one.
 
Apr 5, 2018 at 12:37 PM Post #390 of 685
You can tell when someone is reacting to the sounds of words when they describe flat response as "dry and lifeless". Flat is just a calibration. You could just as well use the word "balanced", but balanced doesn't feel dry and lifeless. Somebody doesn't know what flat response that measures well sounds like!

I have experienced in blind listening and those figures I linked to showing substancial changes in driver performance measurements in the first 20-100 hours.

I can see that an initial shift might be possible if it's the first time you're putting sound through a pair of cans and everything has to jog into place. I can even see how if you left your cans on the shelf for a couple of years, it might take a minute or so for them to jog back into place. The thing I have trouble with is the slow gradual shift towards a specific goal response. I don't know how you'd achieve that without a big sample variance at the end of burn in. I would think it would be a lot easier and more consistent to just design the headphones using materials that don't deform over time. Maybe there are headphones that do shift over time. But if I bought a pair I would probably return them, because I want equipment that performs consistently. I don't want to have to worry that the process of burn in would continue until burn out. When I buy a set of headphones, I judge them when I take them out of the box. If they are what I'm looking for, I keep them. If they change into something else, I return them. I've never run into a set of cans that did that though.
 

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