[Ryland Johnson]

Interesting never noticed this as much on the QC35s but then I was probably focussed on the connection dropping! It is a shame, my search for commuter headphones continues.

It may become the case, as in all manners of life, that you will have to compromise? No easy task for the audiophile! Thank goodness I have now relegated myself from Audiophile to Smilephile! I now buy what makes me happy and I enjoy listening to. My OCD with perfection has passed....

I write this paragraph not to you in particular but in general. Compromise is always going to be a major factor in head gear and, in fact, HiFi etc blah blah. Personal choice is the thing and we all need to stop using the terminology..."The best". I think we all understand there is no such thing in reality as taste-personal preference always plays the major decision when we make our purchases.
The world of HiFi as I knew it in the early 70's has long gone. Its no bad thing. Dozens of highly respected companies have gone to the wall and most of that is a result of refusal to diversify and make compromises also keep up to date with modern trends of listening, how we receive what we listen to. The CD is now a thing of the past as most music is streamed.
I have no idea if the DAP trend is going to last either? Sure there are some that produce a very decent sound stage BUT when it come to the decision of carrying around two devices this is a problem. For me to carry yet another device around with me it has to be worth it both financially also technically. Sent the Pioneer XDP 100R back twice, once last year at 520.00€? and once a week ago at 320.00€? Though the pioneer does produce a different sound characteristic to my Samsung Galaxy Note 8 the pioneer is not worth the inconvenience and cost of a second unit. Compromise.

I have several headphone devices. In ear, on ear and around ear. I am not so fond of in ear. I like on ear but open back. My present over the ear are open back. I enjoy the 'Sennheiser' sound. Tried numerous other brands but find myself coming back to Sennheiser. I have owned in the past B&W speakers but not headphones so want to experiment with the PX's. No idea what to expect and at present I cannot find a sales outlet that has stock? I understand B&W are having a teething problem with the PX and need to make a firmware alteration?

I would like to again try wireless. I write again as I have tried wireless head gear several times over the past 5 years and have not found a pair that are worth the outlay and the compromise in sound quality? Am I now willing to make compromises?......No idea I shall take the plunge though with the PX's and see what happens, that is when I can find a pair lol.

Very nice community hear. Nice to debate with you guys and gals. I am going to enjoy learning from you all.

Ryland

 

[walbum4262]

I just went to the audio store to get a listen to the PX compared to the Sony I have been aiming for the last few months and now the mk2 that’s even better has come along. To finally decide what Wireless NC headphone to get.

At first listen without NC the sound is quite enjoyable, it’s full and dynamic and pleasant and on par tough with a different signature than Sony. But my god the sound quality takes a hit when NC is turned on, every life in the music is just sucked out of the music.

So it will be the wh-1000x mk2 for me

 

[Ryland Johnson]

I just went to the audio store to get a listen to the PX compared to the Sony I have been aiming for the last few months and now the mk2 that’s even better has come along. To finally decide what Wireless NC headphone to get.

At first listen without NC the sound is quite enjoyable, it’s full and dynamic and pleasant and on par tough with a different signature than Sony. But my god the sound quality takes a hit when NC is turned on, every life in the music is just sucked out of the music.

So it will be the wh-1000x mk2 for me

To enjoy, or should I write reproduce, the most natural sound stage available the signal must be passed though as few signal altering processes as possible. For the purist audiophiles the very thought of NC will cause a sudden feint. Again we return to this one word. Compromise.
Of course NC will have, for certain, an effect on the end sound quality. NC by nature alters what we hear or should I write, are allowed to hear?
Until I hear a pair of NC headphones I can but speculate but one thing for sure my expectations are not high. Different is not always a sign of 'better' its just different. Its your choice that counts.

Ryland

 

[Kingston12]

To enjoy, or should I write reproduce, the most natural sound stage available the signal must be passed though as few signal altering processes as possible. For the purist audiophiles the very thought of NC will cause a sudden feint. Again we return to this one word. Compromise.
Of course NC will have, for certain, an effect on the end sound quality. NC by nature alters what we hear or should I write, are allowed to hear?
Until I hear a pair of NC headphones I can but speculate but one thing for sure my expectations are not high. Different is not always a sign of 'better' its just different. Its your choice that counts.

Ryland

Absolutely. The ideal situation for listening to headphones is in a room with no background noise at all, but for sound on the move it is not nearly so simple.

I have got the Bose QC35 and the B&W PX and neither of them are anything close to the best set of headphones I have heard at home, ANC on or off. However, when I am on a deafeningly loud Tube train, they move much closer to the top of the list because their inferior sound combined with the reduction in background noise from the ANC is still better than the sound from the better headphone that I can hardly hear.

I haven't really experimented that much with the different ANC levels on the PX, but just flicking through them, differences in sound quality are evident. I think for me it would be the same argument - I'd rather be listening to the highest level of ANC on the Tube, but would turn it off at home. In fact, the PX's highest level of ANC seems too low for the Tube. I don't need quite as much as Bose offers, but a bit more would be nice for that usage.

Come to think of it, I have never tried the QC35 with ANC off, and this is because the QC25 that I had before were awful with ANC off, much batter with it on. I guess I just supposed that the QC35 would be similar.

 

[walbum4262]

To enjoy, or should I write reproduce, the most natural sound stage available the signal must be passed though as few signal altering processes as possible. For the purist audiophiles the very thought of NC will cause a sudden feint. Again we return to this one word. Compromise.
Of course NC will have, for certain, an effect on the end sound quality. NC by nature alters what we hear or should I write, are allowed to hear?
Until I hear a pair of NC headphones I can but speculate but one thing for sure my expectations are not high. Different is not always a sign of 'better' its just different. Its your choice that counts.

Ryland

I well aware of that and I trade the audiophile part for convenience, I listen to 5 digit headphone rigs on a regular basis but as a family father of 3 kids dogs, cats what a house to keep most of my listening is done on the go so I willingly trade the sound quality for convenience.

But I stand by my statement, ones the NC is turned on, on the PX something terrible happens to the sound that doesn’t happen even closely with the cq35 and the Sony wh-1000x.
As I wrote the sound of the px is really great with NC turned off.

 

[Ryland Johnson]

I well aware of that and I trade the audiophile part for convenience, I listen to 5 digit headphone rigs on a regular basis but as a family father of 3 kids dogs, cats what a house to keep most of my listening is done on the go so I willingly trade the sound quality for convenience.

But I stand by my statement, ones the NC is turned on, on the PX something terrible happens to the sound that doesn’t happen even closely with the cq35 and the Sony wh-1000x.
As I wrote the sound of the px is really great with NC turned off.

I hear you, we are on the same page. In your case its obvious the PX's are not suitable for your use.

A question if I may? I have read several times that the NC makes the PX sound grim and this is the reason why B&W are making a firmware change, is this true?

I have only tried at home two pairs of wireless headgear and I returned both. One was the Bose the other.....In ear by....have to get back on that, memory moment. lol

Ryland

 

[GrussGott]

I tested an iPhone 7 with MP3 320 CBR via Bluetooth AAC and an Astell & Kern with FLAC 16/24 bit via Bluetooth aptX HD. I really liked the iPhone 7 more due to the wider soundstage and the more vivid sound. So aptX is not obviously better...

Just been trying out with Tidal Hifi streaming on my iPad Pro vs. Astell and Kern AK70 - I’m getting the opposite result with the AK more detailed and dynamic. I think the ipad is better that the Samsung S7 Edge however.

Yeah, there's a lot going on in these 2 quotes so I think it's important to note the PX's use cases:

(1.) As an ANC headset for travel.
Key Question: What is the trade-off between SQ and ANC + travel features?
Answer to Date: Most reviewers note the SQ is better, albeit neutral and "closed in" w/ANC on, than the alternatives (ANC on) with the ANC being not as good. Other features are much more subjective, like the Sony swipe stuff.

(2.) As a wireless headset for portable listening at home or in the office
Key Question: How does the SQ + features compare to other similar priced headsets with minimal or no ANC?
Answer to Date: The PX is a high quality HP with a neutral balance and most who give it an vigorous test would say it's equal or better sounding than any other comparably-priced headset given you're looking for neutral. However, as with all wireless headsets, limited by bluetooth amongst other factors (see bluetooth notes below). Other features will be a love 'em, hate 'em, don't care affair.

(3.) As an audiophile headset for wireless or wired use
Key Question: How does the SQ compare, ANC off and/or wired, to other similar priced headsets?
Answer to Date: The PX is a high quality HP with a neutral balance and most who give it an vigorous test would say it's equal or better sounding than any other comparably-priced headset given you're looking for neutral.

NOTE: After the PX's baked-in SQ, ANC off, the bluetooth codec is a big deal
The limiting factor on SQ is going to be your Bluetooth codec: SBC, Aptx, or AptX-HD. First and foremost, don't use SBC if you can avoid it.

Even AptX-HD is not lossless, but a 4:1 compression albeit on a "wider" stream: AptX-HD supports 24-bit/48kHz with compression 4:1, and a bitrate of 576kbps versus AptX which transmits "CD like" 16-bit/44.1kHz still with a 4:1 compression although at 352kpbs. Note that a plain ole CD is 16-bit/44.1KHz at 1411 kbps.

The party trick with AptX & AptX-HD is that it uses "split-band adaptive differential pulse-code modulation" (ADPCM) which basically splits up the signal and transfers the good stuff you hear (freq bands) faster and higher quality than the bad stuff. This is why AptX claims to be "CD-like" (but not lossless 16/44, 1411kbps) and AptX-HD claims to be high res. Qualcomm claims that ADPCM makes AptX streams indistinguishable from the source.

Key implication: if you're transmitting a file via AptX, it's being compressed, and if it's higher-res than the AptX or AptX-HD transfer limits you're simply losing that resolution. (and I would argue your ears and brain likely don't process any resolution above CD quality 16/44 even if your HP are wired, i.e., no codec)

BUT I CAN HEAR DIFFERENCES!
Anybody claiming they *CAN* distinguish between AptX and its source or other high quality codecs should do multiple blind tests to confirm as time and again it's been proven that with headphones and equipment the placebo effect is 99%-100% of any perceived differences.

As for AptX and AptX-HD, on most tracks I cannot consistently distinguish between AptX and a CD. My guess is AptX-HD will shrink that small detectability to zero, but then it's already small enough to not be relevant.

For me AptX with CD quality source is almost indistinguishable and I advise anyone who thinks they can tell (or between CD quality and anything higher for that matter) to do 15 minutes of blind testing before they spend gobs of money on fancy equipment, but YMMV

SQ IN SUMMARY
Your SQ limiting factors will be the headset w/o ANC, then your source (16/44 - CD - for optimal), then your codec. Personally I don't believe anyone can distinguish above CD quality all other things = so I don't think people should worry about files larger or wider than 16/44 (and there are gobs of technical reasons for this, but let's say the first one is anyone over 25 has diminished hearing).

 

[Ryland Johnson]

Yeah, there's a lot going on in these 2 quotes so I think it's important to note the PX's use cases:

(1.) As an ANC headset for travel.
Key Question: What is the trade-off between SQ and ANC + travel features?
Answer to Date: Many reviewers note the SQ is better than the alternatives (ANC on) with the ANC being not as good. Other features are much more subjective, like the Sony swipe stuff.

(2.) As a wireless headset for portable listening at home or in the office
Key Question: How does the SQ + features compare to other similar priced headsets?
Answer to Date: The PX is a high quality HP with a neutral balance and most who give it an vigorous test would say it's equal or better sounding than any other comparably-priced headset given you're looking for neutral. However, as with all wireless headsets, limited by bluetooth amongst other factors (see bluetooth notes below). Other features will be a love 'em, hate 'em, don't care affair.

(3.) As an audiophile headset for wireless or wired use
Key Question: How does the SQ compare, ANC off and/or wired, to other similar priced headsets?
Answer to Date: The PX is a high quality HP with a neutral balance and most who give it an vigorous test would say it's equal or better sounding than any other comparably-priced headset given you're looking for neutral.


NOTE: If you like the PX SQ, ANC off, the bluetooth codec and sources are your limit
The limiting factor on SQ is going to be your Bluetooth codec: SBC, Aptx, or AptX-HD.

Even AptX-HD is not lossless, but a 4:1 compression albeit on a "wider" stream: AptX-HD supports 24-bit/48kHz with compression 4:1, and a bitrate of 576kbps versus AptX which transmits "CD like" 16-bit/44.1kHz still with a 4:1 compression although at 352kpbs. Note that a plain ole CD is 16-bit/44.1KHz at 1411 kbps.

The party trick with AptX & AptX-HD is that it uses "split-band adaptive differential pulse-code modulation" (ADPCM) which basically splits up the signal and transfers the good stuff you hear (freq bands) faster and higher quality than the bad stuff. This is why AptX claims to be "CD-like" (but not 16/44, 1411kbps) and AptX-HD claims to be high res. Qualcomm claims that ADPCM makes AptX streams indistinguishable from the source.

FINAL BLUETOOTH NOTE
Anybody claiming they *CAN* distinguish between AptX and its source or other high quality codecs should do multiple blind tests to confirm as time and again it's been proven that with headphones and equipment the placebo effect is 99%-100% of any perceived differences.

As for AptX and AptX-HD, on most tracks I cannot consistently distinguish between AptX and a CD. My guess is AptX-HD will shrink that small detectability to zero, but then it's already small enough to not be relevant.

For me AptX with CD quality source is almost indistinguishable and I advise anyone who thinks they can tell (or between CD quality and anything higher for that matter) to do 15 minutes of blind testing before they spend gobs of money on fancy equipment, but YMMV

SQ IN SUMMARY
Your SQ limiting factors will be the headset w/o ANC, then your source (16/44 - CD - for optimal), then your codec. Personally I don't believe anyone can distinguish above CD quality all other things = so I don't think people should worry about files larger or wider than 16/44.

Great post. Thank you.

Ryland.

 

[Munchkinham]

I well aware of that and I trade the audiophile part for convenience, I listen to 5 digit headphone rigs on a regular basis but as a family father of 3 kids dogs, cats what a house to keep most of my listening is done on the go so I willingly trade the sound quality for convenience.

But I stand by my statement, ones the NC is turned on, on the PX something terrible happens to the sound that doesn’t happen even closely with the cq35 and the Sony wh-1000x.
As I wrote the sound of the px is really great with NC turned off.

Did you test all ANC settings? The strongest is certainly the worst for the music. Office is quite ok though. barely changes the sound.

 

[walbum4262]

I hear you, we are on the same page. In your case its obvious the PX's are not suitable for your use.

A question if I may? I have read several times that the NC makes the PX sound grim and this is the reason why B&W are making a firmware change, is this true?

I have only tried at home two pairs of wireless headgear and I returned both. One was the Bose the other.....In ear by....have to get back on that, memory moment. lol

Ryland

Grim could be a word to explain it like I wrote without NC the music has great dynamics and life, great for modern listening. But ones the NC kicks in and the modes did not matter much life is just dragged out of the music.

About the update I think a previous post mentioned something about Bluetooth protocols being updated to get less dropouts beside that I do not know.

The Bose did not strike true with me either, bass was to loose and out of control and that hurt the entire sound. out of all the wireless headphones I have tried the sony’s has the cleanest and clearest and most balanced sound of them all, but everyone to he’s or her taste that the journey we all take when we dip our toes into this world finding the sound we like

 

[GrussGott]

About the update I think a previous post mentioned something about Bluetooth protocols being updated to get less dropouts beside that I do not know.

One note about Bluetooth drop-outs ... I've had a completely different experience with bluetooth on Bose: it's horrible for me, but here's probably why:

(1.) I live in a condo in the middle of a city so LOTS of RF interference
(2.) Lots of water pipes (and big ones) in the walls - water blocks bluetooth signals (and WiFi ... for the same reason microwaves heat water)
(3.) Lots of devices: 3 laptops, 2 phones, 3 tablets (mixed macos, pc, ios, android)

With my on-ear Bose, they are the worst bluetooth of any of my wireless headphones and the QC-35s were a step worse (with the exception that the app helped me troubleshoot faster). To connect my Bose to any device literally takes 20 seconds of fecking around.

My B&W P7W, however, connect instantly and I mean INSTANTLY; like on-connected (no apps or fecking around). All the time, everytime for a year. In fact the P7W are so good at bluetooth connecting that when I inadvertently shut off the connection sounds (holding the power & volume down it turns out) and thought I needed warranty repair, it never actually impacted my life because the connectivity was so reliable I didn't need confirmation.

If the PX have the same bluetooth connection performance, then that's worth $200 right there to me.

In any event, any reports of bluetooth connectivity issues have to take into account those factors.

 

[rabass6]

If the PX have the same bluetooth connection performance, then that's worth $200 right there to me.

The PX has a better Bluetooth receiver in my experience, it doesn’t cut the sound if I listen to my iTunes library in my MacBook in the living room when I am in bed. With the P7 it didn’t work.

 

[Tubakien]

If the PX have the same bluetooth connection performance, then that's worth $200 right there to me.

In any event, any reports of bluetooth connectivity issues have to take into account those factors.

The PX has a better Bluetooth receiver in my experience, it doesn’t cut the sound if I listen to my iTunes library in my MacBook in the living room when I am in bed. With the P7 it didn’t work.

+1 for a great BT connectivity.

From my experience, the PX's have at least as good a range and strength as the P7W's. I can place my source (LG V10) near the center of my 900 sq ft apartment and pretty much walk into any room without losing the connection.

 

[Kingston12]

A quick update based on my second listening session tonight:

The main negative is that I just can't see a use for the ANC-modes on the PX. Back on the tube tonight, even flight mode is too weak, and despite my earlier testing, the ANC is definitely affected by the rattling doors. It is not as bad as the Bose in this regard, but then it is not reducing nearly as much noise as the Bose is, so this should be expected.

As others have found, the sound quality is so drastically reduced when using the flight-mode ANC that I don't think I'd ever use it. If it reduced outside noise a bit more, it might be worth taking the SQ hit in certain circumstances, but as it stands I'll never turn it on. The office ANC mode just seems to substitute deep/low noise for high/hissy ones. It doesn't reduce the SQ too much, though so there might actually be an occasional use, but I can't think of one!

Wind noise is also not as good as I first thought with ANC on, but leagues ahead of the QC35. With ANC off, it isn't noticeable.

On the upside, the sound without ANC engaged is the best I have yet heard from a wireless headphone, and that is just straight from an iPhone 7+. The wear sensor works really well (medium sensitivity). The app is occasionally slow to connect, but I am not sure I'll use it much anyway, especially given that I will be leaving ANC off permanently.

I'll definitely keep these for a while to see how I get on with them. I think that if the QC35 didn't suffer from the 'tube-door' problem, I'd settle for them as my commuting headphones despite lower overall sound quality. As it is, the PX might win through. I'd like to try the Sony X1000M2, but I am not sure I could live with the complex controls after the simplicity off the QC35 and the PX. QC35 wins in this regards, but the PX is already fine after a day's use.

 

[lifeinabox]

Hmm I own a pair of Sony 100XM2, I'm pretty pleased in terms of sound quality, even tho my phone haven't received the Oreo update for LDAC streaming yet. So i wonder if anyone here have tried both These PX and 1000XM2 (with LDAC streaming, using a source like Tidal Hifi), Is the SQ huge? Unfortunately the only supplier in my country wont receiver the PX until November so I cannot compare for myself yet.

Also one thing that boggles my mind is how come B&W managed to put a USB C connection on the PX whilst Sony (one of the worlds leading tech company) still went with the Micro USB output...

I'm waiting on a pair of M2 (hopefully, this week) to test against the PX.