[jadenh]

Well, it's not only mine, to be honest. Resolve, a core team member of Headphones.com wrote:

"
I’ve been holding off on giving my thoughts on the Bathys because I’ve been waiting for the B&W PX8 to come in to compare, and folks have been comparing them to one another.

I now have that one in and no, it’s not on the same level as the Bathys for sound quality - along just about all dimensions of sound quality I can think of, but in particular the tuning on the PX8 sounds very weird to me. Boomy and muddy bass with a strong low to mid treble resonance causing some percussion compression.

I think the stiffer competition for the Bathys in terms of sound quality comes from the Sennheiser Momentum 4."

The first time I mentioned PX8 sounded "boomy" in this thread and said I actually preferred Momentum 4 at the price range, I was immediately booed by a very active member (not naming anyone because we're just discussing) in this thread that said something like "B&W headphone sounded boomy??", so I do believe there are avid B&W fans here IMHO we should always consider the echo chamber effect before claiming one can represent all users and can decidedly claim something is perfect (I hate to bring this up, but at the very least, until B&W fixes the wear sensor, I don't think you can decidedly say that PX8 is perfect). Rhetoric like that may further push out opposing opinions and reinforce the positive feedback loop.

However, I think the stark contrasts in sound impression here might be caused by listeners mixing sound signature with other sound quality aspects, such as resolution (I really don't think different healthy ears can hear things in such drastically different ways, because many in this thread also appear to agree XM5's (EDIT: original) sound is worse). While to my ears Momentum 4 has a balanced tuning (the "Sennheiser sound" as some might call it) that's more in line with many reference headphones, and is performing great and very enjoyable at its price range, I wouldn't claim M4 to be a "hi-fi headphone" because of its resolution, soundstage, etc. PX8 is not tuned in a balanced way at all, but that can be partially rectified by (the limited) EQ, and it has good resolution and soundstage that IMHO qualify it as an entry-level hi-fi headphone. For many who first step into the hi-fi (or mid-fi? I really don't know how these are categorized ) rabbit hole, they may prefer the overly warm signature because of the tracks they prefer, other (lesser) headphones they (used to) own, and especially when they're on the go or in noisy environments (I think warmer signature might sound more pleasing in those scenarios), and the extra sound quality improvement definitely helps setting PX8 apart from low-fi gears.

These are just my guesses btw, and they're really subjective and unscientific, so feel free to disagree. I really believe one's listening habit is shaped by many things, by the tunes and genres they love, the volume they listen to, the headphones they are using, etc., that's why this forum exists: open discussions are better than "authoritative" reviews from hi-fi magazines, because different people may get more useful advice from others that are in similar situations.

 

[nunomeneses]

The first time I mentioned PX8 sounded "boomy" in this thread and said I actually preferred Momentum 4 at the price range, I was immediately booed by a very active member (not naming anyone because we're just discussing) in this thread that said something like "B&W headphone sounded boomy??", so I do believe there are avid B&W fans here IMHO we should always consider the echo chamber effect before claiming one can represent all users and can decidedly claim something is perfect (I hate to bring this up, but at the very least, until B&W fixes the wear sensor, I don't think you can decidedly say that PX8 is perfect). Rhetoric like that may further push out opposing opinions and reinforce the positive feedback loop.

However, I think the stark contrasts in sound impression here might be caused by listeners mixing sound signature with other sound quality aspects, such as resolution (I really don't think different healthy ears can hear things in such drastically different ways, because many in this thread also appear to agree XM5's sound is worse). While to my ears Momentum 4 has a balanced tuning (the "Sennheiser sound" as some might call it) that's more in line with many reference headphones, and is performing great and very enjoyable at its price range, I wouldn't claim M4 to be a "hi-fi headphone" because of its resolution, soundstage, etc. PX8 is not tuned in a balanced way at all, but that can be partially rectified by (the limited) EQ, and it has good resolution and soundstage that IMHO qualify it as an entry-level hi-fi headphone. For many who first step into the hi-fi (or mid-fi? I really don't know how these are categorized ) rabbit hole, they may prefer the overly warm signature because of the tracks they prefer, other (lesser) headphones they (used to) own, and especially when they're on the go or in noisy environments (I think warmer signature might sound more pleasing in those scenarios), and the extra sound quality improvement definitely helps setting PX8 apart from low-fi gears.

These are just my guesses btw, and they're really subjective and unscientific, so feel free to disagree. I really believe one's listening habit is shaped by many things, by the tunes and genres they love, the volume they listen to, the headphones they are using, etc., that's why this forum exists: open discussions are better than "authoritative" reviews from hi-fi magazines, because different people may get more useful advice from others that are in similar situations.

A B&W headphone boomy? Hummmmy

It was I.

I was skeptical. As on any other company B&W as their own signature. And liking or not the low end is emphasized but controlled so I was skeptical… I didn’t have the headphones yet.

now that I have them and am enjoying a lot out of them, I guess I wont call them boomy but I get what you refer. Px8 is not perfect. But perfection is defined how we perceive the sound so is a different take for each of us.
they are for sure the best wireless Anc sounding headphones I’ve heard, at least for my taste. But these types of headphones are for me the new wireless generation and I wish I had bathys to test them up, they intrigue me… I think from now on we will see the bar raise from all the companies.

 

[qba3d]

You are making another assumption. I have bass heavy headphones (denon, b&w), bass light (open back focal, sennheiser, grado). I am not locked into that the headphones must have either or, I am fine with swapping between them and like to have variety. Most headphones are fairly out there with tuning towards either side when compared to speakers. Very few headphones have an even response and are capable of a truly neutral sound on a neutral amp, most are tuned takes on sound and need PEQ if you want a close to neutral sound.

Some people don't like boosted bass and some people don't like anemic sounding headphones which is fine. It might be difficult to understand that others can swap between bass heavy and bass light without issues, but there is a big difference between stating a preference and making an assumption.

I seriously see no area of an assumption on my end. Simplification for sake of understanding what I meant? Sure, this thread is quite tricky I noticed. I mentioned that I do swap headphones often and yet, there is always a tuning that feels right among them and one that does not. I think the more You listen to different headphones, for longer periods, ones that You grow to like and respect, the more Your preference changes. Even a bit. Or, opens You up and then You learn what You like in a certain tuning. When You eat ice cream and instantly switch to say salty pickled cucumber You do feel odd at first. Especially with a new taste. I also mentioned that after a few weeks I would probably love px8. We all have burn-in in our heads. It's the path I mentioned not a final locked perception.


And yet when I say so here, it is felt (by some) as an assault on generally loved headphones as that, for some, seems to be an attack on their objectivity, taste, or brand. It's not.

 

[Soundizer]

Px8 is far more forgiving. Are you gonna lose some of the finest details in the process? Yes. But it also doesn’t punish pad recordings like the bathys does.

Thank you. Are the ear cups replaceable?

 

[Denkmal]

Thank you. Are the ear cups replaceable?

Yep. Although with the real leather I would expect them to last a long time. They feel plush, smooth and durable at the same time.

 

[MayaTlab]

One interesting experiment is if you took 3 very different headphones and used PEQ to make them all have the exact same frequency response. My expectation is that they would still be perceived as different sounding by most people despite their frequency graphs being equal.

There is a rather simple explanation for that, that would need to be controlled for before exploring other causes than FR : your own samples, once EQed to a target according to other samples measured on ear simulators, still won't have the same FR once they're on your head. Either because of sample variation, or coupling issues (and the PX8 might be quite susceptible to the later above 1kHz or so).

The question then is the degree of the residual divergence, and it's quite likely to depend heavily on the exact model of headphones under consideration and specific ranges of the audible spectrum, going from a "barely audible" problem to a "sounds completely different" one.

I've regularly measured these phenomena with in-ear mics of various kinds, an older example here, performed with DIY probe tubes and confirmed with other in-ear mics types : https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...-noise-cancelling-headphone.25609/post-995729
A more recent example, using only blocked ear canal entrance microphones, and Oratory's PDF EQ presets, that includes several samples of the same model :

Please note that you should not compare these measurements with anything else, and not look at the absolute values, only look at the relative difference between the traces. A successful equalisation to the same target would have brought them at the same level, as you can see that wasn't the case. Some of the causes for the residual difference :
- the use of blocked ear canal entrance mics vs open (but that isn't going to change the overall story, I've done the above several times with open ear canal entrance mics)
- sample variation
- the EQ presets deliberately - and often wisely - not correcting some dips
- coupling issues (you can see a superb example of it for two traces in particular), ie how the headphones behave on the ear simulator wasn't representative of how they behave on your own head

 

[Soundizer]

Well, it's not only mine, to be honest. Resolve, a core team member of Headphones.com wrote:

"
I’ve been holding off on giving my thoughts on the Bathys because I’ve been waiting for the B&W PX8 to come in to compare, and folks have been comparing them to one another.

I now have that one in and no, it’s not on the same level as the Bathys for sound quality - along just about all dimensions of sound quality I can think of, but in particular the tuning on the PX8 sounds very weird to me. Boomy and muddy bass with a strong low to mid treble resonance causing some percussion compression.

I think the stiffer competition for the Bathys in terms of sound quality comes from the Sennheiser Momentum 4."

I think it's important where You come from expirience-wise, headphones-wise, and what You compare it to. Maybe it's the fact that say I like the warm sound, of say, Dynaudio Confidence speakers, and can respect that calm warm sound when it's done in a certain way. I like bassy headphones with a LOT of base when its balance like in XBA-Z5. Probably, if I would listen to PX8 for a few weeks I could get used to those, and love them, but as a first not "burned in" impression that is what I heard. But that is why, in my intro, I described where I come from with my gear and experience that naturally impacts my perception.

I am surprised that Resolve considers the Senn MM4 as competition to Bathys?

 

[Soundizer]

Right, so it's the button on the side, which has three modes. Off, Transparency, and ANC. This is what I'm referring to. Two of the modes measure identically. But yes, I should rephrase that.

Edit: To be clear, I still have more testing to do with the effects of ambient mode, like I mentioned. But as far as the sound quality of the PX8 goes, I find it particularly difficult to listen to for any length of time. But of course, I'm just one person, and what doesn't work for me might be exactly the right thing for someone else.

Hi Resolve,

Perhaps you could publish a detailed YouTube review comparing both Bathys and PX8 with both measurements on same graph. Which you do so well.

 

[Denkmal]

I am surprised that Resolve considers the Senn MM4 as competition to Bathys?

Well an ear that considers the PX8 to be muddy or boomy in the bass region may work in a different way than yours or mine.

 

[Soundizer]

This is absolutely true, and I think a really important part of evaluating headphones with some objectivity. The PX8 and Bathys sound different enough that I think anyone more accustomed to either signature will likely find shortcomings in the other.

When my PX8 arrived I was basically between Bathys/Stellia exclusively, and initially I was a bit disappointed. Took a good two days of just listening to the PX8 for them to settle in and for me to appreciate what is a very different signature. For the kind of vocal heavy music I listen to they just shine. Bathys on the other hand immediately impressed me, as they felt like a 'lite' version of what I was used to, similar presentation to the other Focals with a new tuning.


For sure. I didn't listen to any jazz, but my impressions of the headphones were pretty genre dependent. I'd take PX8 for rock & vocal heavy tracks. Adele esque vocals on PX8 is divine. And Bathys for electronic music, Bicep and the like.

What about Movies which do you prefer as that is my main usage. I have the Bathys, but not listened to PX8.

 

[Soundizer]

Having had the Momentum 4 briefly, I find it exceptionally bizarre that anyone who has listened to both that and the PX8 could describe the PX8 bass as bloated or muddy. The Momentum 4 is significantly more bloated and muddy than the PX8 - it’s not even close. I’m not even sure how anyone could compare the Momentum 4 to the Bathys either (ignoring the obvious pricing gap). Their signatures are poles apart too.

Strange, but interesting how folk appear to hear things so differently

Yes i agree and just returned my MM4. surprised MM4 would even be considered competition to Bathys?

 

[Soundizer]

Well an ear that considers the PX8 to be muddy or boomy in the bass region may work in a different way than yours or mine.

Have you listened to the MM4?
I returned it before buying the Bathys. I would agree it was muddy and boomy.

MM4 is not close to the resolution, sound stage as the BATHYS.
I KNOW we must be OBJECTIVE, but call a Tree is a Tree not a Pineapple.

Then why is it considered competitive to Bathys based on Resolves comments.

 

[iFi audio]

In the IFI amp I use the base boost to make Clears slightly above Harman in the base region,

If I may ask, which one of our amps do you have?

 

[Denkmal]

Yes i agree and just returned my MM4. surprised MM4 would even be considered competition to Bathys?

I only listened briefly to the MM4 but I agree. Not the same league as Bathys. Not as PX8 either, for that matter. Not even close.
But hey, it is like that friend of mine who really prefers Bose Qc35 over everything else - at least you dont have to pay much.

 

[nunomeneses]

For what it’s worth I listen the px8 with treble at 1.5. On iPad Air and iPhone 14 pro max range 50% to 70%. Sometimes lower and others higher…

I never listened to bathys and if I read all the people comparing them i take 2 conclusion. 1- they must be at very near quality of sound level. 2 - out of the 2 the most preferred px8 (if it’s because of features, design, comfort or sound alone depends on the person). I wish I had a pair to compare… but i Can’t justify the extra 800€ just to Compare when I’m enjoying px8… but it is consuming me because I am a fan of focal sound too…