[Greyes]

Generally, I'm wondering if certain links (DAC, AMP) in the audio chain can be true bottlenecks, or if they'd really just be considered weak links.
For example: If I want to walk comfortably and buy stellar shoes but crappy socks, the socks are not a true bottleneck, rather just a weak link (as the shoes are still providing an improvement). In contrast, integrated PC graphics would be a true bottleneck paired with a 4k monitor, because no increased benefit from the monitor is seen due to the graphics card being incapable of providing the potential.
You may have noticed, the above examples aren't flawless- further details could prove them false (if your previous monitor was 4 pixels in size, some improvement was indeed gained through upgrading to 4k...), so how about my specific inquiry...

The LCD2 Classic seems like a great deal, but it already essentially breaks my budget by itself. So, is it within the realm of sanity to pair these phones with measly mp3s and a ~$100 DAC/AMP? Or is that just pure and complete idiocy?
I've come a long way and learned a ton about headphones, but this subject is vast, and while I can plainly see by numbers that certain budget DAC/AMPs are capable of driving the LCD2Cs, I understand that isn't the end of the discussion(?).

I'm very keen on these Classics. Musically, I'm in love with texture and bass primarily, and see planar magnetic phones as the drivers for me (ugh, that low THD and extension in the bass); to know that Classics descend from a $1000 pair, but have a greatly improved (best I've seen?) headband, the most attractive aesthetics I've seen, potentially better performance (nearly below .1% THD across all frequencies at 100db SPL?), are priced at $800, but are on sale down to $600 (on top of word that Audeze has resolved their QC inconsistencies)...well jeez, I've drooled on my keyboard just typing it all.

I adore music, and have taken far too long to upgrade my listening experience. I do plan to use some high quality music service and seek out higher quality music files in the near future, and would also of course invest in a more long-term, higher quality DAC/AMP. I essentially just want to know how much of my money in the LCD2C quality would be locked away until I do upgrade my full audio chain.

 

[Monsterzero]

I essentially just want to know how much of my money in the LCD2C quality would be locked away until I do upgrade my full audio chain.

Short answer is:
If your heart is set on the LCD-2c go ahead and grab it. It isnt exceptionally hard to drive and isnt exceptionally revealing,so an inexpensive amp can tide you over until upgradeitis hits you.Since it isnt super revealing means you can get away with poor quality rips and poor masterings/recordings moreso than a headphone like the HD800.

Of course better quality songs and a strong amp/DAC will help but as long as you grab an entry level amp( Schiit Magni 3) you will be okay.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

The LCD2 Classic seems like a great deal, but it already essentially breaks my budget by itself. So, is it within the realm of sanity to pair these phones with measly mp3s and a ~$100 DAC/AMP? Or is that just pure and complete idiocy?

I've tried my office desk Pangea HP101 with the LCD-2 (the original issue of the 2C) and Spotify. Still good. Depends on what $100 DAC-HPamp you use - the HP101 has a good amp circuit and preamp stage for the money. The problem with it is the USB controller has crap drivers for Windows but somehow Android works with no problems.

 

[Greyes]

as long as you grab an entry level amp you will be okay.

Depends on what $100 DAC-HPamp you use

Thanks for posting!
Have any recommendations? The Schiit Fulla 2 comes to mind (as well as the Origen and Q1- though I haven't checked their compatibility with the LCD2C yet) simply because I've heard good things and seen love for Schiit, but I've yet to deep dive my options; I think I'd also prefer something portable, as I will probably eventually want a dedicated portable headphone (but then, maybe I'd go with portable phones without the extra hardware anyway...)

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Have any recommendations? The Schiit Fulla 2 comes to mind (as well as the Origen and Q1- though I haven't checked their compatibility with the LCD2C yet) simply because I've heard good things and seen love for Schiit, but I've yet to deep dive my options; I think I'd also prefer something portable, as I will probably eventually want a dedicated portable headphone (but then, maybe I'd go with portable phones without the extra hardware anyway...)

AFAIK Fulla2 has a lot of power for a USB-powered unit but still not all that spectacular on the LCD-2.

I have the D-Zero also and it's mostly representative still of what performance you can get from a $100 portable amp, and the LCD-2 seemed kind of lazy with it.

If you really need a portable set up more I'm much more inclined to just get CIEMs if you can spend as much as the price of an LCD-2C anyway.

 

[Monsterzero]

AFAIK Fulla2 has a lot of power for a USB-powered unit but still not all that spectacular on the LCD-2.

I have the D-Zero also and it's mostly representative still of what performance you can get from a $100 portable amp, and the LCD-2 seemed kind of lazy with it.

If you really need a portable set up more I'm much more inclined to just get CIEMs if you can spend as much as the price of an LCD-2C anyway.

+1

You dont need a four-digit amp for the LCD-2s but youre not going to come remotely close to maxing out the potential of the Audeze with a Fulla.

I would look into a Mojo by Chord(though that might be a tad too warm of a combo),or the iFi Black Label for mobile use.For desktop you can get away with a Magni 3 (99.00) and then grab a pair of IEMs for mobile use.Frankly the LCD-2s arent really made to be portable anyways.

 

[Greyes]

AFAIK Fulla2 has a lot of power for a USB-powered unit but still not all that spectacular on the LCD-2.

I have the D-Zero also and it's mostly representative still of what performance you can get from a $100 portable amp, and the LCD-2 seemed kind of lazy with it.

If you really need a portable set up more I'm much more inclined to just get CIEMs if you can spend as much as the price of an LCD-2C anyway.

+1

You dont need a four-digit amp for the LCD-2s but youre not going to come remotely close to maxing out the potential of the Audeze with a Fulla.

I would look into a Mojo by Chord(though that might be a tad too warm of a combo),or the iFi Black Label for mobile use.For desktop you can get away with a Magni 3 (99.00) and then grab a pair of IEMs for mobile use.Frankly the LCD-2s arent really made to be portable anyways.

Right, I don't plan on really trying to use the Classics for portability... Remember the DAC/AMP pairing with the Classics is temporary- what will work for the time being, and will eventually be upgraded to something the Classics deserve. The talk of portability arises really just out of the fact that when I do upgrade DAC/AMP, I'll have this current choice leftover for other use, you know? It would be an efficient use of money to end up giing it a new dedicated roll (maybe I'm trying to optimize frugality too much ).
As for the mention of the Magni 3; you mean to imply that this AMP would be a better use of $100 than the DAC/AMP combo via the Fulla 2?

 

[Monsterzero]

As for the mention of the Magni 3; you mean to imply that this AMP would be a better use of $100 than the DAC/AMP combo via the Fulla 2?

Hard for me to tell you how best to spend your money.What I can tell you is planar headphones scale quite high with good clean power.In the past I owned the Magni Uber 2,and it was okay for easy to drive headphones.For planars however,the HE-500,LCD-2pf and especially the HE-6 I literally couldnt give them enough power,and the more I gave them the higher the SQ scaled.The MU2 simply couldnt come close to making them sound great.The LCD-2 isnt the power hungry beast from hell that the HE-6 is but it still responds very well with added juice.

Notice I said "get away with the Magni 3"...which is different than me recommending the pairing as optimal.I havent heard the new Magni 3 but on paper it should do a decent job driving the LCD-2c,but as a wiseman once told me "Youre better off listening to a 200.00 pair of headphones on a 2000.00 amp than you are listening to a 2000.00 headphone on a 200.00 amp"

YMMV.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Right, I don't plan on really trying to use the Classics for portability... Remember the DAC/AMP pairing with the Classics is temporary- what will work for the time being, and will eventually be upgraded to something the Classics deserve. The talk of portability arises really just out of the fact that when I do upgrade DAC/AMP, I'll have this current choice leftover for other use, you know? It would be an efficient use of money to end up giing it a new dedicated roll (maybe I'm trying to optimize frugality too much ).

You can use a portable DAC-HPamp and use it as a DAC for a desktop amp later provided it has a line out, but the lower voltage line output on these will mean your amp needs to have a bit more gain as well. And then if you use it as a portable, the question is, with what? If you'll use something as a portable later on you can just pick an IEM or CIEM that won't need the portable amp anyway.

If you're thinking of efficient use of money you can either
1. buy a CIEM now and use it everywhere as it has isolation for the road and comfort for long sessions at home (or both for a long haul flight) and might not necessarily need an amp (pick one with high sensitivity and stay away from smartphones with crap audio circuits or one that requires you to join the dongle club), or
2. just plug the LCD-2 into whatever you have right now while putting that $100 towards a better amp.

 

[Greyes]

Hard for me to tell you how best to spend your money.What I can tell you is planar headphones scale quite high with good clean power.In the past I owned the Magni Uber 2,and it was okay for easy to drive headphones.For planars however,the HE-500,LCD-2pf and especially the HE-6 I literally couldnt give them enough power,and the more I gave them the higher the SQ scaled.The MU2 simply couldnt come close to making them sound great.The LCD-2 isnt the power hungry beast from hell that the HE-6 is but it still responds very well with added juice.

Notice I said "get away with the Magni 3"...which is different than me recommending the pairing as optimal.I havent heard the new Magni 3 but on paper it should do a decent job driving the LCD-2c,but as a wiseman once told me "Youre better off listening to a 200.00 pair of headphones on a 2000.00 amp than you are listening to a 2000.00 headphone on a 200.00 amp"

YMMV.

That all makes plenty of sense. One thing that I'm actually a bit confused on though: Regarding 'scaling', you make it sound like power != volume, and that more power is better. I understand clean power being important (though it's an area I know nothing about), but I was under the impression that the power level directly translated to the volume- so for example, if we pretend the Fulla 2 and Magni 3 both have the potential to drive the Classics to 'painfully loud' and have equal power quality, then as amps, their performance would be equivalent..? Have I over-analysed your comment, and you just meant to convey that planar magnetics have proven difficult to drive, while also increasing in quality as power/volume is increased?

You can use a portable DAC-HPamp and use it as a DAC for a desktop amp later provided it has a line out, but the lower voltage line output on these will mean your amp needs to have a bit more gain as well. And then if you use it as a portable, the question is, with what? If you'll use something as a portable later on you can just pick an IEM or CIEM that won't need the portable amp anyway.

If you're thinking of efficient use of money you can either
1. buy a CIEM now and use it everywhere as it has isolation for the road and comfort for long sessions at home (or both for a long haul flight) and might not necessarily need an amp (pick one with high sensitivity and stay away from smartphones with crap audio circuits or one that requires you to join the dongle club), or
2. just plug the LCD-2 into whatever you have right now while putting that $100 towards a better amp.

Hm, okay I appreciate the suggestions. Getting the feeling most would put the $100 towards a standalone AMP rather than DAC/AMP judging by you two and how others tend to prioritize- wish I could just test out a hundred combinations to discern for myself which works out the best! Haha

 

[Monsterzero]

Youre misinterpreting 'volume' for control. Plenty of headphones can get 'loud' while at the same time be under driven.I used to drive my HE-6s directly from the speaker taps(where you connect speakers) of a 125wpc into 8ohms vintage receiver. The HE-6s are 50 odd ohms,so quick math tells me i was putting around 20 watts into them...and they sounded epic! Tight,impactful,thunderous bass.Detail retrieval without being sibilant,A sense of air and space,a holographic sound stage.

When under driven headphones can lack all of the above qualities and still be loud.

Still the LCD-2c is a fairly easy HP to drive and im not suggesting you need to use speaker taps from a vintage monster(but you could).
You cant get good results direct from a phone but an entry level amp will work,and it will continue to get better with better and stronger amping,sources and lossless files.

You should look into attending a local Head-fi meet or better yet try to make it out to a CanJam.

 

[Greyes]

Youre misinterpreting 'volume' for control. Plenty of headphones can get 'loud' while at the same time be under driven.

Ah, thank you! That explains so much- something seemed off about the model I had in my mind and how people spoke about power.
As for the events, I'd love to. I'll be keeping my eye out- unfortunately I missed one in my area about a month ago.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Ah, thank you! That explains so much- something seemed off about the model I had in my mind and how people spoke about power.

Think about how many cars can break the speed limit and get your license revoked at top speed, but a FWD Civic at 138mph will have more torque steer and aero problems than a squat and wedge-shaped AWD Lamborghini at 155mph.

 

[Greyes]

Think about how many cars can break the speed limit and get your license revoked at top speed, but a FWD Civic at 138mph will have more torque steer and aero problems than a squat and wedge-shaped AWD Lamborghini at 155mph.

Oh absolutely. Just, in all my research, I haven't ever seen anyone point that out, and I've noticed multiple people operating off of that assumption (people using "they get loud" as their rationale for believing 'x' device can drive 'y' headphones just fine).
On that note, how does one know how well an amp will drive their headphones? The math you need to do in order to see if amp+headphone are even compatible just covers the volume issue, does it not? [I have the equivalent question regarding DACs...but after reading a thread on the exact topic, it seems too enigmatic for anything beyond "Read reviews, trust your ears."]

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Oh absolutely. Just, in all my research, I haven't ever seen anyone point that out, and I've noticed multiple people operating off of that assumption (people using "they get loud" as their rationale for believing 'x' device can drive 'y' headphones just fine).

It depends on the situation. For the most part most people might not be able to tell a difference, which is why some come back frothing at the mouth going off against people who made them blow a lot of money for nothing.

In other cases spending tends to be discouraged by people here for a number of reasons, like if the thread question was about an IEM as a portable using a smartphone where the gains are totally unproportional to the hassle of strapping a DAC-HPamp or even just an amp to a phone, or lugging around a DAP. The IEM is relatively easy to drive and has good isolation that just makes lugging around extra gear a problem. In other cases it's more a matter of how you can get a really good amp for well under $1,000 anyway so there's really no need to blow a lot more unless you don't have to cut down on other expenses or investments just to blow that much money on an amp.

On that note, how does one know how well an amp will drive their headphones? The math you need to do in order to see if amp+headphone are even compatible just covers the volume issue, does it not? [I have the equivalent question regarding DACs...but after reading a thread on the exact topic, it seems too enigmatic for anything beyond "Read reviews, trust your ears."]

Yes and no. Some people just go with, say, if the amp power can hit 100dB without clipping. That doesn't take into account distortion, and they think everybody aiming for 120db are idiots aiming to blow their eardrums. Point isn't to actually hit 120dB, even 120dB peaks (because that means average is 90dB or higher) but just having an amp that you can assume is well within its low distortion output range. Other amps might have less power and clip sooner but if they're starting out with much lower THD+N that by the time you hit the same usable output level you're still getting cleaner power than some other amp.

In other cases amps with very low THD+N are actually less preferred because some people don't actually want amplifiers, they want warmifying boombasticators that make the sound so syrupy ants can start eating the system.