Binaural Sound Demonstration
Jul 10, 2014 at 5:36 PM Post #31 of 57
  Double blind test or it doesn't count!

I would LOVE to have such an opportunity - but getting musicians to listen to their own recordings immediately after the performance - in any format/resolution - is about the closest approximation of Mission Impossible. Only the very few of the very best I have been working with expressed the wish to listen to the freshly made recordings . They are primarily interested in their own performance - sound quality is much lower on their wish list, and does not matter one iota if they are not satisfied with their own performance in the first place. Such a recording is verboten to go anywhere - period. No matter how good in technical department regarding SQ. 
 
Let alone them having to compare some double blind ABX - after a full day of rehearsal and concert in the evening ...
 
At present, I can not conduct a fair ABX between PCM and DSD - although I have 4 Korg DSD recorders, it is 2 pcs of MR-1 and 2 pcs of MR-1000 - out of each type one is modified, the other still in stock condition. I plan to bring at least the remaining stock MR-1000 to the level of the modified one - then can a fair PCM vs DSD be made in as many times blind ABX test as one would like. It is a pity, as I could perhaps have such xtimes?double? blind ABX test arranged during the forthcoming recordings of the Ljubljana International Orchestra LIO during next two weeks or so. Trouble, as usual, is money - as lately it is anything but picnic to be a free lance recording engineer over here. The money that such ABX requires is more needed elsewhere, where it would actually further contribute to better recordings - but I do have the desire to carry it out in hopefully not too distant future;  similar series of concerts will be again in the winter.
 
What I CAN do at present is to record the same performance in the same resolution to two recorders in parallel - one in original stock condition and the other modified. And post the resultant 30 seconds ( copyright, fair use etc limits ) clips - for everyone interested in ABX to compare in leisure of their own home, using their own equipment .
 
To basically prove that All Amplifiers Do Not Sound The Same ( and dispell the expectation bias suspicions ) .
One has to start somewhere ... - or else, in not too distant future, MP3 might be regarded as - high end; if everything is declared as "transparent" ...
 
Jul 10, 2014 at 6:30 PM Post #32 of 57
first thanks you for the great answer, we obviously have different perspectives, and different ideals, but it sure was interesting to read.
 
still you assume a few things that aren't facts as far as I know. you got the logic right (at least it seems right to me ^_^), but you start with wrong(at least to me^_^) assumptions.
even in the audible range, our brain will try to recreate the missing parts of a sound based on experience. that's how we believe some moderately clipped bass to be louder than they are, because expecting the top of the wave becomes the same as hearing it. if it works(to an extent) for the loudest part of the sound, I'm pretty convinced that harmonics past a certain order, or decays below a certain level, are both assumed as existing even when they're not there. because of how easy it is to assume a pattern and imagine what will follow.
but of course below a certain level we don't care simply because it's to low to care or simply hear it, feel it, perceive it... we have our own sensitivity limits and frequency range limits like would any microphone. those are physical limitation plain and simple so I don't see the point of going beyond those limits. but it seems like you do.
 
in fact from what I read, you seem to take the sound of an instrument as a complete piece and believe that we can't hear it as being real, if something is missing. like some kind of cake that wouldn't look as a whole if the cherry on top is missing. as said with my example of slightly clipped bass, I don't believe that we actually need all the data to hear all the data. some are necessary, some aren't. just like we recognize a person even if half his face is in the shadow or making a face. we have that capacity/curse of altering the truth into what we feel we need. visualizing things from blurred or incomplete images, just as we can recognize a song on a crappy phone speaker. and that capacity goes a long way with sound. even a messed up guitar will be a guitar, because what else could it be, so we'll assume it is. from that point our brain will try to hear the guitar in that mess and change what I'm hearing. at every level this happens and I don't think we need the 80Th harmonic of a note for it to sound real as a string. the first few sure, it's what makes the sound. a few more why not, they do give a feel if they're not too quiet and don't decay too fast. but at some point it will end up being just a tiny noise and wouldn't participate in any meaningful way. and what instrument does actively reach 20khz and above? I've used that great page for years now http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm and I always supposed that what was shown was accurate. as the notes on the piano reference stop at 16khz I concluded that everything reaching 16khz might go beyond it, but that's it, wouldn't it mean that most other instruments do not even reach 16khz even with the harmonics?
if this is not wrong, then all that passion for past 20khz is pretty much for cymbals(my least favorite instrument of all when drummers mistake strength with talent) and people breathing making some involuntary high pitched notes in the process? because most pieces of violin that I heard don't wander too much on the higher notes. simply because it rapidly sounds aggressive and not so much musical, I would guess.
 
 
I just don't think we need to have 100% of the created sound to hear it right. or exactly, even with 100% of the sound we wouldn't hear it right because we would add stuff on our own. we would add the same stuff every time we hear a given sound, because again we do it from experience so we would make the same conclusion and "understand" the same sound every time.
people can find a sound natural with a 3% thd tube amp, what percentage of the sound of an instrument is past 20khz? that's a dumb way to look at it, but I keep the idea that we make up for the differences up to some point, so we really don't need to have everything right for it to feel right.
and of course, as I don't believe we actually receive much information above 20khz anyway(even non conscious information), missing a part we never heard isn't missing a part.
just like our cone and rod cells in the eye aren't enough to get the real spectrum of the light reflecting on objects, we don't need that unseen part(UV or whatever) to come out of a photo or a tv to make it feel more real. it doesn't feel real but that's mostly because it's 2D and our eyes don't get why they don't have to refocus to look further away in the image, and because the rest of our field of vision tells us the light is wrong. but it has nothing to do with the missing UV. the only real sound is the sound we can hear. it doesn't matter what the instruments are actually making if it's out of our reach. and to me that reach is around 16khz, so let's say I could make something out of up to 18khz right now. not hearing, but receiving some matter of soft cues. having or not having the rest won't change a thing. that is what I believe and what you don't. the rest is a way to justify that simple point of view I think for the both of us. I keep thinking that the differences you percieve don't come from the 20khz and more. there have to be something else being responsible for the difference you get.
 
back to the subject, I've tried the k1000 for a minute or so, and while it's not a bad idea for binaural (given we wouldn't move the "wings" once set right). it gets us free from the pads and a bunch of sound reflections so obviously that could help. I don't know how well it does in high freqs, but what I did notice and was expected, because... well ... science. was how light it was on low freqs. the roll off was no joke.
so for me that would be a no go unless we can get something with more bass. but wouldn't more bass be a reason why the trebles get rolled off? ^_^
anyway if it's a good match for flat sound in the high freqs, then at least imaging and placement must be great. I did enjoy it but didn't pay that much attention to imaging except that is was indeed different from your usual headphone.
 
Jul 11, 2014 at 12:09 AM Post #33 of 57
Jul 11, 2014 at 5:27 AM Post #34 of 57
   
When you figure that out, then you'll know.

It is not about figuring out, merely about using two identical recorders to give fair conditions to both PCM and DSD. One can not expect the musicians to give two totally equal performances twice in a row - once with recorder set up for PCM, another for DSD. It is only about satisfying the criteria for true ABX, nothing less and nothing more. 
 
Were it not for the finances, I would have done that long ago. I do not give ABX nearly the same credit as some people, because short samples usually ABXed do not give the full measure/merit of what is being listened to.
 
Yet I agree to play by the ABX rules. 
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
The following has nothing to do with binaural - but can be another way of proving there makes sense to go beyond redbook  CD standard.
 
Fot those that do have NATIVE DSD playback capability ( your signal path never converts DSD into PCM ), like mainly classical music and are curious what DSD can bring to the table for mainly well made by now rare(r) analog recordings of the past, you can try some of the downloads from 
http://www.highdeftapetransfers.com/
There are few free DSD samples - and quite a few 44.1/16 samples of music, so that you can get general idea about the musical performance of roughly half of what is available before the purchase. There are various resolution downloads available, both for PCM as well as DSD - which were mainly generated from DXD transfers from analog tape or, in some instances ( where master tape deteriorated below the quality available from the pressed vinyl record ), analog record. You can choose to download and ABX any PCM and DSD resolution of your choice. Remember, the key feature here is the capability to play all of the files NATIVELY .
 
Disclaimer : I have no affiliation with the HDTT whatsoever, merely wanted to share one of the more interesting outlets for DSD / HiRez music.
 
Jul 11, 2014 at 12:59 PM Post #35 of 57
Record to DSD - Bounce down to redbook - DBT
Easy.
 
Jul 11, 2014 at 4:42 PM Post #36 of 57
  Record to DSD - Bounce down to redbook - DBT
Easy.

 
but his point is that DSD native is different than any PCM, therefore bouncing DSD down to any PCM isn't making the directcomparison he's looking for
(that's not my statement; i'm clarifying his and i believe i'm correct, he can fix otherwise)
 
this is a common claim on the net that native DSD (through combinations of decoding, insane sample rates, etc.) is fundamentally different from PCM
 
i think analogsurvivor needs credit for (slowly) approaching a very difficult test.  
 
Jul 11, 2014 at 5:46 PM Post #37 of 57
   
but his point is that DSD native is different than any PCM, therefore bouncing DSD down to any PCM isn't making the directcomparison he's looking for
 

 
But I think that is the comparison to make. If you have a native DSD source and playback capability (A) and you take that virgin source and create a PCM copy (B) and compare the two in a blind test, (ABX), then if there is a difference between the native DSD samples and any PCM, the results of the test will show that.
 
But maybe I'm confused about analogsurvivor's hypothesis?
 
Cheers
 
EDIT: looking back and reading more carefully, do you mean:
   
but his point is that DSD native is different than native PCM, therefore bouncing DSD down to any PCM isn't making the directcomparison he's looking for
 

???
 
That would require somebody to make a recording where the microphone output is split and sent to a DSD AD and to a PCM AD sampling the same signal simultaneously. Even then, the chances are that you are ABXing the different equipment in the chain along the way from DSD/PCM source to DSD/PCM playback. there are so many variables you leave uncontrolled that this test would immediately be meaningful.
 
To be honest, the correct way to compare the two are to choose an common format that exceeds all the capabilites of both, convert both to that format, and then play that. That said, 24 bit exceeds the capabilities of the electronics' SNR, so I don't really see the point. There's no equipment that I'm aware of that can play 24 bit audio at 24 bit quality. Optimistically, i think it peters out around 20--22bits at best. EDIT: i see we are more specifically talking about 16/44.1 here.
 
The capability of PCM and DSD are pretty well documented. Their performance in terms of noise floor, signal to range, frequency response, etc. have been studied and they can comfortably exceed even the most optimistic limits of human perception. If one can provided rigorous evidence otherwise, one could publish quite a high profile paper in a top journal. 
 
Cheers
 
Jul 11, 2014 at 6:07 PM Post #38 of 57
  But maybe I'm confused about analogsurvivor's hypothesis?

 
I've taken to just reading the first paragraph and last paragraphs of his posts. The stuff in the middle usually confuses me.
 
Jul 11, 2014 at 6:09 PM Post #39 of 57
if you try a complete system, then that's what you're testing, not DSD. and there will be nothing to say that another DSD system would also be superior to another PCM system (given that we reach such improbable conclusion on the first attempt).
 
obviously if the dac is converting the DSD to pcm then DSD is useless. but where do we stop, lots of people are sure of the superiority of DSD over pcm and don't even know that they're listening to something mastered first in PCM. then at the end converted into DSD. how many albums are available that are at no point in PCM format?
when you record in DSD and use a software if only to mix the tracks, does it keep the file in DSD?
it's hard to believe in something that is just shinny paint over good old PCM. and from my perspective that just adding one more conversion so certainly not improving anything.
 
for an ABX, why not take a DSD file, convert it to 16/44, then convert it back to DSD. that way both the original and the 16/44 can be played on the same system. and I think we can agree the 16/44 would have lost the supposed "DSD sound" in the process(if not it would just prove that the ultrasounds were indeed useless):
 
is there any major problem to that?
 
Jul 11, 2014 at 6:23 PM Post #40 of 57
   
???
 
That would require somebody to make a recording where the microphone output is split and sent to a DSD AD and to a PCM AD sampling the same signal simultaneously. Even then, the chances are that you are ABXing the different equipment in the chain along the way from DSD/PCM source to DSD/PCM playback. there are so many variables you leave uncontrolled that this test would immediately be meaningful.
 
To be honest, the correct way to compare the two are to choose an common format that exceeds all the capabilites of both, convert both to that format, and then play that. That said, 24 bit exceeds the capabilities of the electronics' SNR, so I don't really see the point. There's no equipment that I'm aware of that can play 24 bit audio at 24 bit quality. Optimistically, i think it peters out around 20--22bits at best. EDIT: i see we are more specifically talking about 16/44.1 here.
 
The capability of PCM and DSD are pretty well documented. Their performance in terms of noise floor, signal to range, frequency response, etc. have been studied and they can comfortably exceed even the most optimistic limits of human perception. If one can provided rigorous evidence otherwise, one could publish quite a high profile paper in a top journal. 
 
Cheers

 
 
i have no horse in this race!   but read around the net about DSD.  a lot of the audiophool arguments are based on NATIVE DSD somehow being different than PCM (i would assume in the same manner that pure analog is "somehow different" than PCM, right).  i certainly have my opinions on what i feel about that (which i'm pretty sure we share), but in the absence of an actual comparison of NATIVE DSD vs. NATIVE PCM....well it is what it is right.  
 
i applaud what (i think?) analogsurvivor is getting at, which is to compare native PCM and native DSD.  cause that's a hard test to perform.  he did at some point provide a group of files (classical) which were in several PCM resolutions and DSD, and supposedly all the same master.  i have no idea how they were made or whether the assertions are true...all i know is they all sound exactly the same to me...but my system is by necessity converting the DSD and super-high PCM to 24/96 as that's the limit of my DAC.
 
then there's the simple fact that no post-recording processing can currently be done in DSD, so even "native" DSD files were PCM at some point.  like i said, i'm pretty sure we have the same ideas on the reality of it all...
 
Jul 11, 2014 at 6:50 PM Post #41 of 57
   
but his point is that DSD native is different than any PCM, therefore bouncing DSD down to any PCM isn't making the directcomparison he's looking for
(that's not my statement; i'm clarifying his and i believe i'm correct, he can fix otherwise)
 
this is a common claim on the net that native DSD (through combinations of decoding, insane sample rates, etc.) is fundamentally different from PCM
 
i think analogsurvivor needs credit for (slowly) approaching a very difficult test.  

Yes, this is the general idea. It requires native DSD playback capability. It IS hard to do ABX at the moment - foobar ABX comparator does not support DSD natively at the time - although it should appearently be capable of native DSD512 playback - that is eight times (!)  the resolution of SACD = DSD64. The first commercially available DSD DAC capable of DSD512 is around the corner - release date for iFi Audio micro iDSD is 22nd June - globally. It isalso capable of double DXD .
 
That is why I am always proposing to start with something that never was in PCM - be it ( in descending order of quality ) analog microphone (binaural ) feed, DSD recording, direct to disc analog record, analog tape, analog record. Even DXD ( PCM at 352.8 kHz 24 bit ) and double DXD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_eXtreme_Definition
do not offer the pulse response of DSD - but allow for editing with the minimum harm done to the pure DSD file.
 
I personally do not posses DSD capable DAC yet - iFi audio nano iDSD is on some sort of "extended loan", nearing its end. I will go for the micro iDSD - as it offers practically anything I ever dreamt of in a portable DAC/headphone amp, including analog input, analog implemented ( not DSP ) crossfeed & bass correction (if required), optimization for wildly variable sensitivity of headphones ( it is capable of being configured to work without hiss and large volume control range with ANY known headphone/IEM ) and enough power to (conditionally) power the AKG K1000 - which is known to be the most inefficient pair of cans around. Of course I can play DSD natively (up to DSD128) from Korg DSD recorders - but this requires transferring the files to the Korg's HDD ( software limited to 100 GB in MR 1000 ) and is practically inconvinient as hell - and definitely can not perform DBT ABX without the help from another person. Its purpose is that of making quality recordings - not as ABX comparator.
 
Listening to DSD via conversion to PCM is much like reading a foreign language book in form translated to your language; it is much better if you learn the original language well enough to catch the finer meaning usually lost in the translation . It is a Wagner opera sung in English; it still is  great music, but something is bound to get lost in the translation. The other way around, PCM transported to DSD,  can sound better than native PCM, if that was low sample rate (redbook ) in DSD - mainly due to possibility to use much less steep filtering. However, DSD to PCM and vice versa are both lossy processes and native playback of any is to be preferred.
 
So - "Wagner opera in English" listeners without native DSD playback capability, please only comment on what you can.  I am not going to pretend to have seen/heard something I have not the faintest idea about - fair enough ? It is perfectly OK to say that the difference was not worth it for you - but not "it should not matter because redbook is all that human being is supposed to need" - without actually hearing it for yourself. It is not night and day difference, it may not matter in 30 second samples for ABXing - but after listening to DSD over say a weekend, you will start noticing the difference whenever it will be PCM .  This is not to say that resolution by itself will create great sounding recording - no, a superbly miked and mastered redbook CD will outperform just a bit less well miked and mastered DSD. But given equally good treatment prior the analog signal hits the input of the recorder, DSD should do better.
 
Jul 11, 2014 at 7:01 PM Post #42 of 57
   
 
i have no horse in this race!   but read around the net about DSD.  a lot of the audiophool arguments are based on NATIVE DSD somehow being different than PCM (i would assume in the same manner that pure analog is "somehow different" than PCM, right).  i certainly have my opinions on what i feel about that (which i'm pretty sure we share), but in the absence of an actual comparison of NATIVE DSD vs. NATIVE PCM....well it is what it is right.  
 
i applaud what (i think?) analogsurvivor is getting at, which is to compare native PCM and native DSD.  cause that's a hard test to perform.  he did at some point provide a group of files (classical) which were in several PCM resolutions and DSD, and supposedly all the same master.  i have no idea how they were made or whether the assertions are true...all i know is they all sound exactly the same to me...but my system is by necessity converting the DSD and super-high PCM to 24/96 as that's the limit of my DAC.
 
then there's the simple fact that no post-recording processing can currently be done in DSD, so even "native" DSD files were PCM at some point.  like i said, i'm pretty sure we have the same ideas on the reality of it all...

 
..horse in this race... :looks at avatar: 
tongue.gif

 
Sorry if I came off as argumentative, I'm just trying to wrap my head around the hypothesis and place it in context with what (i think) i already know. If there's a way to perform the test, then I would love to participate in testing. I just wanted to clarify the hypothesis.
 
 
What about testing this?: 
  if you try a complete system, then that's what you're testing, not DSD. and there will be nothing to say that another DSD system would also be superior to another PCM system (given that we reach such improbable conclusion on the first attempt).
 
obviously if the dac is converting the DSD to pcm then DSD is useless. but where do we stop, lots of people are sure of the superiority of DSD over pcm and don't even know that they're listening to something mastered first in PCM. then at the end converted into DSD. how many albums are available that are at no point in PCM format?
when you record in DSD and use a software if only to mix the tracks, does it keep the file in DSD?
it's hard to believe in something that is just shinny paint over good old PCM. and from my perspective that just adding one more conversion so certainly not improving anything.
 
for an ABX, why not take a DSD file, convert it to 16/44, then convert it back to DSD. that way both the original and the 16/44 can be played on the same system. and I think we can agree the 16/44 would have lost the supposed "DSD sound" in the process(if not it would just prove that the ultrasounds were indeed useless):
 
is there any major problem to that?

If DSD is everything that 16/44.1 is and more, then by converting to 16/44.1 and back to DSD again should allow the same playback hardware to compare a native DSD file with one crippled by the limitations of 16/44.1. Two cases would be possible:
 
Case 1: a statistically significant result that the native DSD file can positively be differentiated from the 16/44.1. In this case, we conclude that either there is a difference between DSD and 16/44.1 or there is an audible artifact from the DSD conversion. This would justify attempting the more difficult next step of doing the full native DSD vs naitive PCM test.
 
Case 2: DSD and the PCM-crippled DSD cannot be differentiated. In this case, we can conclude that there is no audible difference between native DSD and PCM.
 
Obviously, one would need to test a variety of test tracks to cover the worst-case-scenarios. Then one could conclude the results for themselves. A statistically significant portion of the population would need to be tested to determine the capabilities for the general population.
 
Cheers
 
Jul 11, 2014 at 7:14 PM Post #43 of 57
   
..horse in this race... :looks at avatar: 
tongue.gif

 
Sorry if I came off as argumentative, I'm just trying to wrap my head around the hypothesis and place it in context with what (i think) i already know. If there's a way to perform the test, then I would love to participate in testing. I just wanted to clarify the hypothesis.
 

 
it's a unicorn...which completely opens the air between the instruments and injects a singularity powered black background.  horses introduce a veil to the sound   
beerchug.gif

 
 
analogsurvivor (sometimes rightly) gets a lot of crap here about his theories, but i think it's important to be fair, that he's the only one suggesting a truly rigorous test of the DSD claims.  
 
Jul 11, 2014 at 7:19 PM Post #44 of 57
  Listening to DSD via conversion to PCM is much like reading a foreign language book in form translated to your language; it is much better if you learn the original language well enough to catch the finer meaning usually lost in the translation . 

 
If PCM can't fully capture everything in DSD, you should be able to easily discern a difference between DSD and DSD bounced down to PCM, right?
 
DBT or it doesn't count.
 
Jul 11, 2014 at 7:49 PM Post #45 of 57
   
If PCM can't fully capture everything in DSD, you should be able to easily discern a difference between DSD and DSD bounced down to PCM, right?
 
DBT or it doesn't count.

That is true. But how on earth can anyone convience another in superiority of DSD - who does not have native DSD playback capability and is thus forced to listen to DSD bounced down to PCM in any case ? He/she gets to hear whatever highest PCM resolution his/hers DAC is capable of - no true DSD/PCM DBT possible at all. 
 
I thought that DXD will be sounding a lot more close to DSD (whatever resolution/sampling rate ) - yet it does not. It still sounds somewhat cold and hard to me -  which is almost never a case with DSD. Funny enough, I found 192/32 bit floating bounced down from DSD128 the best sounding PCM to date.
 
Again, without DAC capable of native playing of all of the above, it is a guessing speculation act - at best. 
 

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