[Brahmsian]

I agree. Sound engineers across all genres are using neutral equipment. If the goal is to hear the music the way it was created, neutral playback will reveal it the most accurately.

Most headphones aren't neutral, and they all don't have the same soundstage.

 

[HumbleMan]

I never understood the "X headphone for classical, Y headphone for EDM", 1k for a headphone is a ton of money, just ask non audiophile people if it is a regular rational buy or not.
For a top of the line product, I value neutrality and musicality ("genre master"), anything that is "great for classical, bad for EDM" or backwards, is a waste of money and time for me.

Yeah I know, a ton of people doesn't think the same, but I just wanted to express my opinion, that's why forums exist.

I completely agree. For me, if a headphone can't cope with everything in my music collection, I get rid of it.

 

[Strangelove424]

But most headphones aren't neutral, and they all don't have the same sound stage.

Very true. I'd even go farther than that, and say that none are really neutral! The problem is that "neutrality" is often mentioned as an ideal, but attainment is a different matter altogether. Allow me to take you on a tangent. The original meaning of sin, according to its Greek etymology, comes from archery and it means to "miss the mark". But if you look closely at a target, even the bulls-eye allows for a deviation from absolute dead center. Perfection is impossible. There's always a little sin, a little deviation. "Let him without sin cast the first stone..." I think the same is true for neutrality in headphones. We can talk about neutral as an objective, or a goal, but which headphone has attained it perfectly? I have two cans that are known for being neutral, HD600s and DT880s, and the DT880s are a tad bright in treble, the HD600s have a tad too much midrange energy. So when speaking of neutrality, I think people need to also come to terms with the fact that nothing is perfectly neutral, especially in headphones where engineers haven't quite agreed about compensation curves and such. But at the same time, that shouldn't stop us from comparing different degrees of coloration. The HD600s and DT880s may seem a world apart, but next to a Beats they sound like twins!

Regarding soundstage, unlike with speakers where off-axis response can be measured, headphone soundstage cannot be. It's murky water. That's one of the reasons sound engineers usually use speakers for monitoring, and typically one's with very precisely measured off axis response, to accurately judge the imaging in the mix. Making a direct 1:1 comparison with headphones is very difficult here, whereas FR response or impulse response is easier (though still not 1:1).

90% of what I listen to is classical, so I don't mind a headphone that is good mostly with just that. In fact, I'm specifically looking for a pair of headphones that handles orchestras a little better than the HE400i (as much as I like it). I didn't mean to bust anybody's chops. I just personally would find it more helpful if people specified. And I think others would, too.

I highly highly recommend Beyer DT880s for large and complex orchestra suites. Very curious about the M1060s though personally.

 

[richard51]

Unfortunately I don't find this thread very useful. You don't like the HD800 or the Elear? That doesn't tell me anything unless you also tell me WHAT KIND OF MUSIC YOU LISTEN TO. The HD800 are supposedly great classical music headphones. But if you listen mostly to rap or EDM, then the fact that you hate the HD800 might start making sense.

A good headphone for me reproduce not sound but music....And music begin with a good reproduction of the musical timbre.... A piano must sound like a real piano, a voice like a 3-d real voice, a violin like a real one... The difference between reproducing only one instrument, or one voice, versus an entire orchestra, this difference is a secondary one....The first problem is : is this headphone sound natural?....If not i am not interested in it, even if it is perfect for small band, or an orchestra, if not realistic why bother with a soundstage dedicated to orchestra or small band ? The only one difficulty with the headphone i have listen to is: is it the sound holographically natural or not? But sure if you listen to electronic music only, you dont care about the real musical timbre of a piano or an orchestra,or a voice ... I dont listen to electronica...But i am ok with your desire to know what the reviewer listen to for sure, i want to know that like you and you are right to ask for them....But at the end i dont care to buy an headphone better for orchestra or solo instrument because of the presentation of his soundstage; the first criterion for me is: is it his sound realistically reproducing a real world experience or not of the musical timbre? Sound engineer are not always musician, it seems that many headphones are created for some sound exigence, not for musical reproduction of the instrumental timbre...

And this thread is very useful because it present the other side of the headphone paradise.... trespassing hype, and describing deception, and false pretense in the marketting world.... It is necessary to read that to balance hype... I like this thread....The opinions here, even if not perfectly describing the historical taste and history of the participant of this thread, are certainly not more but certainly not less credible than that of professional reviewer for me...It is necessary to read between the line in all case...Thanks to you all...

 

[phthora]

I never understood the "X headphone for classical, Y headphone for EDM", 1k for a headphone is a ton of money, just ask non audiophile people if it is a regular rational buy or not.
For a top of the line product, I value neutrality and musicality ("genre master"), anything that is "great for classical, bad for EDM" or backwards, is a waste of money and time for me.

Yeah I know, a ton of people doesn't think the same, but I just wanted to express my opinion, that's why forums exist.

I happened to be reading a review of the T1p by the legendary Bob Katz, and I noticed that he weighs in on this issue in passing: "Nevertheless, I strongly believe there does not have to be a "genre headphone": there is no such thing as a "classical music speaker" or "classical music headphone"—or a "hip hop headphone", though Apple and Beats would like you to think so. When a transducer is absolutely accurate, every style of music should sound right." He goes on to suggest that since an 'absolutely accurate' or neutral transducer is impossible, we are forced to prioritize aspects of sound. Some people want big dynamics over accuracy, others want lush mids more than accurate highs, etc. And how prevalent those specific aspects are in a given genre of music may help determine which headphone one prefers. However, he strongly implies that these sorts of genre-based preferences for a particular headphone is a result of those headphones' shortcomings, not strengths.

Read more at https://www.innerfidelity.com/conte...es-and-ak380-music-player#SZL2qpOkGcpKJ5f5.99

Anyway, just something interesting to add to this conversation.

 

[Brahmsian]

Very curious about the M1060s though personally.

Tremendous 106 mm drivers on the M1060. So much potential. The problem is that you just want to tweak the headphone because it doesn't sound quite right in stock form. I don't want to throw this thread off topic, so I'll just say that if you're interested be prepared to mod it along these lines:

 

[Currawong]

Given the inevitable mention of the Utopias, I found them often disappointing on systems other than my own. I got a pair as they are incredibly revealing of both music and audio components, which is great with acoustic music when you want to hear everything that a performer is doing, but not fun with poorly recorded or mastered music.

I was surprised to hear near-electrostatic levels of refinement from the TH900!

Really? I borrowed a pair for a while, and that is something they most definitely do NOT have. I liked them for what they were, if I wanted a massive amount of bass and didn't mind not having any very fine detail resolution.

I am going to turn this one a little sideways here and try to stay on topic.

Beyerdynamic DT1350 (gen 1)

I tried these a few times. Didn't understand what was supposed to be so great about them, but it turned out that the quality control meant that different pairs could sound quite a bit different and that headphone manufacturer quality control was not anywhere near what we might have imagined it to be. That went a long way to explaining the radically different impressions people were posting about some headphones, especially Ultrasones.

I happened to be reading a review of the T1p by the legendary Bob Katz, and I noticed that he weighs in on this issue in passing: "Nevertheless, I strongly believe there does not have to be a "genre headphone": there is no such thing as a "classical music speaker" or "classical music headphone"—or a "hip hop headphone", though Apple and Beats would like you to think so. When a transducer is absolutely accurate, every style of music should sound right."

That would be great if everyone could master their music with consistency. For example, I like dZihan and Kamien, however some of their stuff, despite being "DJ" music is just not mastered with enough bass. Nor are the Verve Remix albums I like.

 

[Music Alchemist]

Really? I borrowed a pair for a while, and that is something they most definitely do NOT have. I liked them for what they were, if I wanted a massive amount of bass and didn't mind not having any very fine detail resolution.

I drove the TH900 with a Chord Mojo and was able to hear delicate textures that were not there with most headphones.

 

[up late]

the th900 is no slouch when it comes to detail retrieval imo

 

[thatonenoob]

Gotta disagree. TH900 has pretty good levels of detail retrieval.

 

[Strangelove424]

Tremendous 106 mm drivers on the M1060. So much potential. The problem is that you just want to tweak the headphone because it doesn't sound quite right in stock form. I don't want to throw this thread off topic, so I'll just say that if you're interested be prepared to mod it along these lines:[/MEDIA]

I don't want to get too far off topic either, but the changes in FR after the mod are amazing. The ringing I had heard about was discouraging, but w/ the mod the response looks smoother than an LCD. Very tempting purchase now. I will budget Audeze pads into the cost if I do. Thanks for the link!

 

[HumbleMan]

Well.. I sort of agree.

I agree in the sense that if you get a summit-fi performing pair of headphones for a mid-fi price, you've gotten fantastic value. But I don't agree that this is an argument for why mid-fi is where the value is at (since you can find "bargains" at essentially any price point), nor do I agree with the notion that mid-fi can be called "value" at all.

Someone on this forum has a really nice quote which is something like "audio is all subtle changes and none of it is worth it". It basically just sums it all up. The truth is that for any normal, non obsessed human being, the changes between headphones are so laughably subtle and CERTAINTLY not worth hundreds of dollars - so talking about value in terms of headphones worth more than 50$ is a bit silly imo - most entry level headphones gives you the most vital information on a track. Now, for us obsessed people.. There are different tiers I guess. Some think entry level to mid fi is the biggest jump in quality. Others, like me for instance, felt the jump from mid fi to summit fi was biggest. In terms of real world differences for the non obsessed, we are both wrong. In terms of difference for our own ears, we are both right.

So I think that talking about "value" and "point of diminishing returns" is a bit silly. Okay, if I start spending thousands of dollars on usb cables I'm probably well beyond the point of dimishing returns - but as long as we are talking about headphones, such a thing doesn't really exist. This is head fi, so I trust most people here understand that its stupid trying to quantify quality changes by looking at FR graphs or dumb stuff like that when talking about AUDIO. What we do know is that there exist "reasonably" priced equipment that gets everything on the recording delivered to you in a spectacular soundstage (HD800), and which we can easily call the "technical pinnacle". But audio enjoyment or the quality of audio reproduction doesn't work like this at all. I'm not saying that the sunken cost fallacy etc isn't a major factor in a lot of peoples opinions when it comes to audio, but what I'm saying is, value is a bit silly of a term when it comes to audio. If that makes sense.

Truth. I've posted before that once the basics are there--which I defined as hearing out of both ears--it's entirely down to preferences. I've rarely come across a headphone that couldn't reveal every single sound I've heard in every other headphone if I listened closely enough. I might not like where vocals are positioned, or how present the bass vs mids vs trebles are, or the aesthetics or physical comfort of the headphones, but in terms of sonic detail, I've never had trouble hearing the same things in audio gear between $30 and $3,000 or more. Once I realized this, and found a combination of sound presentation I was content with in modestly priced headphones, it felt silly keeping the expensive gear just because so many people told me they sounded better. A good rule of thumb is that if you have to go back and forth between headphones to figure out which you prefer, there probably isn't a meaningful difference between the two. Or to put it more bluntly, if you have to go back and forth to justify why one pair is better, it probably isn't.

 

[richard51]

Or to put it more bluntly, if you have to go back and forth to justify why one pair is better, it probably isn't.

Very true.... Or perhaps none of the headphones are truly convincing...They lack something....

 

[Brahmsian]

"audio is all subtle changes and none of it is worth it"

I like that quote but don't agree with it. Just today, on my way home from work, I had to run an errand and there happened to be a Best Buy next to where I was going. I went in to see what headphones they had in the Magnolia Room.

They had an Audioquest Night Owl. Cool! I hadn't heard those before. Tried it on. Ugh! What a tiny little sound. Garbage compared to the headphones I'm most familiar with: HE400i, M1060, and HD650. Then I tried the Bowers and Wilkins P9, a headphone I'd been curious about. I believe it's a $900 headphone. Found it so uncomfortable, I didn't even bother listening to anything on it. The ear cups come in at this weird angle. Just hated it, wanted to take them off as quickly as possible.

Of the three headphones I tried, the best in terms of both sound and comfort was IMO the Sony MDR-1A, the cheapest of the three. (I still prefer my own headphones though; I always walk out of Best Buy very satisfied with what I have.)

The point is that for me those were not subtle differences, not in terms of sonics and not in terms of comfort either. Of course, the irony is that the cheaper headphones often sound better. I really have to conclude that with a lot of these popular $700-$900 cans you're paying for style over substance.

Talk about biggest disappointment headphones! Had I shelled out money for any of the ones I tried today, I would have been sorely disappointed.

 

[richard51]

"audio is all subtle changes and none of it is worth it"

I also like that quote...but like you i disagree with it at the end.... All the pieces of gear i have ever tried, those that i like and those that i dislike, and all that is in between, were in comparison with one another,very clearly audible impressions, no so subtle....Be it headphones, dac, amplifier, cables, every change were not for me so subtle....It takes me 7 years to assemble a so call audiophile system at a modest cost, but my trials and errors were costly....My prefered headphones were the less costly....And the musicality of these headphone, DT-150 beyerdynamic, were not only a subtle change, but the very first time that i listen to a musical can, not a can with an impressive sound, like my 2 Stax, or the he-400, but only a musical realistic reproduction of an instrument, or an orchestra...That quality of the DT-150 compensate for any shortcoming....And for me there was not really a defect in this can, that is only, modestly,efficiently,good....and musical.... i dont listen to my other headphones...Because i like music,not so much impressive sounds...