[Gojira]

After Duncan's recent post on ebay usernames for head-fiers, apparently as a result of our recent "bidding war", I thought it might be useful if we had some discussion about the ethics of bidding against other head-fiers. These are some of my thoughts on the subject.

Who else are we going to bid against for the vintage PCDPs? Non head-fiers have no reason to suspect these players are anything special. Does it seem more fair that whoever bids first should win? I'm sure the seller wouldn't agree, and I'm not sure I do either. Especially since sniping often makes sense (in this case it would have saved Duncan like 50 Euros or so), and the first person to bid is not necessarily the first person to notice the item. If the seller is also a head-fier it becomes even more of a thorny issue. I'm still not sure what I think about it. I mean, if I knew Duncan in real life and he were a friend would I still have bid against him? Probably not, but if we both felt the same way, neither of us would end up bidding on it.

If it had been *any* item other than an unusually cheap D-515 (my current favorite discman), I would have stepped aside. I have intentionally not bid on items in the past when I saw that he was already bidding, not so much because he was a head-fier as such, but out of gratitude for his great PCDP reviews.

To me, the fairest outcome is for whoever wants the item the most to get it. But how do you determine this without raising the price? Price is the usual way (especially on Ebay) of determining who wants an item the most.

Having said all this, I kind of regret bidding against Duncan because all I succeeded in doing was raising his price (which is precisely what I feared was going to happen). So, although I lean toward price being the final arbiter of fairness, I'm not sure what to think about this issue. I do believe we all have to decide ethical issues for ourselves, but I'm curious about what other head-fiers think.

 

[mclaren20]

i think when it all comes down to it, its ebay(or wherever).

i have no clue what you are talkign about with duncan and what nt, but its ebay, people get outbid all the time.

 

[blessingx]

Another eBay thread I don't get.

Don't use auctions if you fear a bidding war. Simple.

If you want to step back for a friend, fellow Head-Fier, etc. great.

If you don't fine.

Is this thread an attempt to start an informal policy? Very bad idea.

And I certainly don't think anyone should be making assumptions about non-HeadFiers. There's a lot of knowledgeable people out there that don't grace our lovely home.

 

[PeterR]

I had that auction bookmarked as well, when I saw Duncan entering I took the finger off the trigger (wouldn't have recognized Gojira though).
When I see a headfier bidding on something I really want, I contact him per PM and sort it out, I think that's what to do. Only problem is that I'm used to make my bids in the last two seconds or so, but I've begun changing my habit and put in minimum bids to show interest...

 

[PeterR]

Quote:

Originally posted by blessingx Another eBay thread I don't get. Don't use auctions if you fear a bidding war. Simple.

Well, the highest bid will win in any case, true. But if Gojira and Duncan would have sorted it out by mail instead by bidding war that player would have cost the winner 100$ less.

 

[Rizumu]

When I see Duncan bidding I don't join in because I know he's a crazy PCDP bidding maniac and I stand no chance

 

[cscott23]

Quote:

Originally posted by PeterR I had that auction bookmarked as well, when I saw Duncan entering I took the finger off the trigger (wouldn't have recognized Gojira though). When I see a headfier bidding on something I really want, I contact him per PM and sort it out, I think that's what to do. Only problem is that I'm used to make my bids in the last two seconds or so, but I've begun changing my habit and put in minimum bids to show interest...

Good post!

I stepped aside too. Although, I wouldn't have stuck it out like you two.

Here's the link

Gojira, I like the EUR125.06 bid....nice touch.

 

[Duncan]

As Peter said, I also did not realise that Gojira was the other 'bidder' else I would've bowed out way before it reached €100

Blessingx

Its not so much a case of whoever finds it claims it, or anything like that, but... we're a 'team' of sorts aren't we? - what is the point of us trying to outbid each other, and pushing up the price for no real reason...

In retrospect, I wish I hadn't pushed how I did, adding an extra €75 to the cost, but... I didn't know who I was bidding against

Oops

Rizumu...

lol... I'm not THAT bad am I?

 

[Gojira]

When I see a headfier bidding on something I really want, I contact him per PM and sort it out, I think that's what to do.

But how does that work exactly? Do you flip a coin? How do you decide who gets to have the item? I was going to PM duncan when I saw his bid. In fact I actually wrote one out, but then changed my mind and deleted it

. It really was a bit of an ethical dillema for me. Perhaps we could have determined who would be the highest bidder in advance by just asking each other instead of testing it in the real world, but you would really have to trust each other for that to work since, until you actually bid, it's all hypothetical.

 

[Duncan]

I think (and I don't mean any of this in a negative way) that there is quite a lot of trust here, especially with the more established members... just look at the FS forum (well, the feedback forum anyway) - How often does anyone get burnt?

We're a good bunch here.. and the only reason that I've started the ebay username list is for quite simply, knowing who other members are...

All anyone can do is try to be courteous maybe??, saves pricing yourself out of the market??

 

[blessingx]

Quote:

Originally posted by Duncan Blessingx Its not so much a case of whoever finds it claims it, or anything like that, but... we're a 'team' of sorts aren't we? - what is the point of us trying to outbid each other, and pushing up the price for no real reason...

Yeah, I hope so. And like I said if people want to discuss or back away from an auction great. Really. But most of these threads push for that and start indicating that the way it be should be. As far as ethics it's personal. Do it or not. I'll probably like you better if you do, but to public encourage it as a (even informal) policy smacks against a lot of what's good here. There's sooooo much eBay whining already, I can only imagine how the entitlement feelings can soar. And also the bad feelings for those that choose not to back away. If it's handled in a personal way and those two, etc. feel each other out great. But (and why I asked about the threads intentions) if it's framed as an "ethical" debate (hope I'm not projecting, but after so many eBay threads...) that's a little screwed up.

 

[Duncan]

Thats a true point blessingx

Well, if nothing else, in that case... the ebay list (if it gets populated) will then on a personal level alert users of the people who will contact you, and those that won't...

...Its just a way to work out how the land lies with other forum members...

 

[Rizumu]

Duncan: Nah, not that bad, I'm just nice

I don't think the courtesy thing is universally agreed on is the problem. There are some members who think "it's ebay, the item goes to the highest bidder."

We are a big portion of the market for vintage PCDPs though. I used to watch D-33 auctions go for $2 or $5 unclaimed, and now there are two ending at almost $40. I think Head-Fi is big enough now that it's going to be impossible to really know if you're bidding against a Head-Fier unless they're a frequent poster. Everyone won't agree on a policy. I can only control what I do, and I don't like outbidding Head-Fiers. I would try and work something out if a conflict came up.

 

[PeterR]

Quote:

Originally posted by Gojira Perhaps we could have determined who would be the highest bidder in advance by just asking each other instead of testing it in the real world, but you would really have to trust each other for that to work since, until you actually bid, it's all hypothetical.

Yes, something like that.

Quote:

But (and why I asked about the threads intentions) if it's framed as an "ethical" debate (hope I'm not projecting, but after so many eBay threads...) that's a little screwed up.

You don't need to go ethical at all with this discussion, some simple strategic reaoning will do. If you want to pay less than the other guy you won't win the item either way, so you don't loose anything by contacting him. If you're ready to pay more and the other guy backs out you have the chance to win the item at a lower price. So it's simply a matter of the strategy with the highest potential gain for everyone.

 

[DLP]

I think that given it's an auction, and you could be sniped by someone you do or do not know, what's the difference? Yeah you might not want to put down more than the asking bid has come to, but that's the nature of an auction: Highest bidder wins, no matter how crazy they are. Ethicality and being fair has nothing to do with this because what if two headfiers that live near each other decide they won't snipe each other because they'll share the equipment or whatever, then someone who doesn't visit headfi but knows about quality audio equipment decides he wants the player and snipes and wins. Nothing gained, everything the headfiers started out to get lost. Yes, it hurts to lose or pay more than you wanted to, but with millions of people on ebay, what can you expect?