[ADUHF]

It would be a toss up for me between the 7506 and the AT M50x. I had the MDR- V6, and have the M30x and even those are both very good neutral headphones. I think there is a difference between neutral and natural sounding though, and in that regard I think the AT Mx0x line has an advantage, with a more organic presentation.

Thank you for the opinions on these, chillysalsa. I am working on a difference plot of the M30x as well. And for a couple other HPs, including the Bose 700, Senn HD 600, Senn HD 650, and maybe also the Senn HD 58x and Senn HD 660S. Some of these are a little out of my price bracket, but I'm still curious to see how they compare with my target curve.

I listened to the Bose 700 at Best Buy, and kind of liked it's warmer sound sig. So I'm curious to see how that compares to the average response curve. And I also want to see how the treble and mids on the Senns compare. And which ones are closest to the target.

Here are Rtings raw plots of the Bose 700...

https://www.rtings.com/headphones/1-4/graph#896/4011
https://www.rtings.com/headphones/1-4/graph#896/4012

There is a little distortion on these in the upper mids and low treble...

https://www.rtings.com/headphones/1-4/graph#896/4029

 

[ADUHF]

In the last 24 hours, I've gone from having no (decent) working HPs, to now having two Beyerdynamic DT-770's. An 80 ohm and a 250 ohm. After doing quite a bit of digging around I was able to find some used demo units of both at a store near me, that was willing to sell them. So I took them both. I'm curious to see if I can tell any difference between the two.

I listened to two different 80 ohm DT-770's at two different GC's recently. And they sounded quite different. One was quite bright in the treble. And the other sounded much better balanced. I went back and forth between the two stores twice, just to confirm that I wasn't imagining things. And it was clear to me after doing so that there was a noticeable difference between the two. Same exact model (as far as I could tell) with the same "80 ohm" label embossed on the cups. But different sound.

The pads did look more worn on the version with the more balanced sound. So it's possible that is what caused the difference in the sound. I still have some trouble believing that the pads alone could be responsible though.

Before I bought the two different Beyers (not from GC), I also had a very nice chat by phone with Pete in Beyer's N. American consumer sales dept.. And asked him a number of different questions about the DT-770, DT-990, Tygr and DT-150. And he was very knowledgeable and forthcoming with answers to most of my questions. The main reason I called though was simply to see where I might be able to find some of the headphones locally, since the usual places in my area all seemed to be out. He wasn't as helpful on that, but was able to point me to some online vendors which had some in stock.

I asked him about the difference in SQ between the two 80-ohm DT-770 demos. And whether some other changes in the design or manufacturing of the HPs could account for that. And he was fairly adamant that there were no "stealth upgrades" in the HP's design that he was aware of that would account for it. And that it was most likely the pads. I also asked if burn-in or just general wear on the drivers might be a factor, since the HP with the better sound seemed more used and worn, and was at a store with much greater foot traffic than the one which sounded brighter to my ears. And he more or less dismissed that as a possibility as well.

I'm still a bit skeptical that difference in sound was solely due to the wear on the pads, but stranger things have happened I suppose.

He also explained the difference between the 32, 80 and 250 ohm versions of the DT-770. The main difference seems to be in the voice coil. The 250 ohm version has the thinnest coil, and the 32 ohm version has the thickest. He deterred me from getting the 32 ohm version. Because he thought the other two would have better SQ. And suggested that the 80 ohm would be the best compromise for use with both low impedance portables, and higher impedance studio gear.

I'm not really planning to use these HPs with portables though, so I'm looking at both the 80 and 250 ohm. And it was shear luck that I happened to find used units of both versions at another store in my area. I had already been to that store a couple of times making inquiries before. And was told each time that they were out of stock. A little persistence sometimes pays off though.

I will probably try to pick up at least one other model to use for comparison with the Beyers. Though I'm not sure what they will be yet. Possibly the Sony MDR-7506, because I kind of like the look of the bass and mids on those... Less so the treble though, with that fairly steep drop above 11-12k. Or maybe one of the AT's. Still lookin at some of the others as well.

The main reason I decided to try the Beyer is because it looks like it might be one of the easiest to EQ, esp. with a simple 3-band control on a mixer. I don't have an easy way to fix the notch at 3.5k though. So that could be a little bit of problem...



I think that might require either a parametric or graphic EQ with a bit more discrete bands of adjustment than the simple low, mid, and high frequency controls on a mixer.

The mixer I'm trying with these is a basic Yamaha MG10, without any of the digital upgrades. I think the headamp on it is somewhere in the 25-50 ohm range. So that is one of the reasons I wanted a somewhat higher impedance HP, like the 80 or 250 ohm DT-770. Whether it'll have enough power to drive the 250 ohm version well is to be determined. The only HP's I've tried with this mixer before were in the 35 ohm range.

 

[ADUHF]

The mixer I'm trying with these is a basic Yamaha MG10, without any of the digital upgrades. I think the headamp on it is somewhere in the 25-50 ohm range. So that is one of the reasons I wanted a somewhat higher impedance HP, like the 80 or 250 ohm DT-770. Whether it'll have enough power to drive the 250 ohm version well is to be determined. The only HP's I've tried with this mixer before were in the 35 ohm range.

Just checked the specsheet on the MG10, and its headamp is actually 110 ohms. The specsheet says it is designed for ~40 ohm headphones. But 110 ohms is really too high for good impedance bridging and SQ with either the 80 or 250 ohm DT-770. The damping factor on the 250 ohm Beyer is only 2.3x the source, which is really too low. So I may have to swap this mixer out for something else. Too bad, as I rather like the inputs, sound quality and EQ controls on this Yamaha mixer.

https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/0/331000/mg10xu_en_ts_c0.pdf

The cheaper Yamaha MG06 mixer has a 33 ohm headamp, but only 2 EQ knobs for high/low adjustments on its mic inputs, which is less ideal. And I'm not sure those are as ideally suited for the unbalanced audio from my TV (my main sound source for the HPs). It has a much smaller footprint than the MG10 though, which is better in some ways. And I do have another mixer here that I could potentially use as a line level converter for the inputs on the MG06, if necessary. That will add more noise to the signal path though.

https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/9/330989/mg06x_en_ts_c0.pdf

My other option is a different brand of mixer with a lower impedance headamp, such as another Mackie. Or maybe a digital receiver that I could use with the TV's TOSLINK optical audio output. I haven't had much luck finding a desktop headamp with the EQ features and inputs I need, at a price I can afford. Another option is to use the mixer just as an EQ, with a separate headphone amp. Preferably one with balanced inputs. That means more clutter though.

 

[ADUHF]

A pair of used Beyerdynamic DT-770's after a bit of cleaning up. The one with the coiled cable on the right is the higher impedance 250 ohm model.

These may look a little "plasticy" in the store. But they seem pretty nicely put together so far. A cloth covering on the headband would have been nice. But also harder to clean than the removable plastic padding.

Hopefully they'll sound nearly as good as they look after a bit of cleanup. (?)

 

[ADUHF]

I have listened to both DT-770's now a little on the Yamaha MG10's 110-ohm headamp. Both have a pretty nice sound. And I think I could potentially roll with either one.

They do sound a bit different on this particular amp though. That may be down to just the difference in impedance and damping factor (only 0.7 on the 80 ohm, and 2.3 on the 250 ohm... both of which are probably too low imho). Or it may not. I'll have to secure a lower impedance source to see what sort of difference in SQ that makes on both HPs.

I only cleaned one set of earpads btw, and am using those on both HPs to remove that as a potential difference in SQ. Both HPs also appear to have the same black cloth filters covering the drivers. Since I didn't have a lint remover, I cleaned the lint and what have you off the filters with some pieces of Scotch tape rolled around my finger. And then also wiped them a bit with a sanitary hand wipe, which evaporates very quickly.

Some unevenness was apparent to me in the upper midrange/low treble (in the location of the 3.5 kHz notch), which effected the accuracy and authenticity of vocals a bit. But aside from that, the SQ was pretty good in the rest of the frequency range. Both HPs have very good extension. And can produce some very nice bass and treble with a little tweaking here and there to the levels. Different for each headphone.

I was a little surprised by how neutral the treble sounded on the 80 ohm version. I do have some hearing loss in the higher frequencies though. And the 80 ohm version also generally sounded a bit more mid-forward on this particular amp than the 250 ohm version. So I had to make more of an adjustment in the treble on the 250 ohm version to keep the sibilants and HF from getting too hissy and airy sounding. It'll be interesting to see if a lower impedance amp makes any differences in the above.

I have not settled on one or the other of these yet btw. And am still looking at some other models.

 

[ADUHF]

While I was browsing for mixers and other gear today, I ran across a pair of Sony MDR-7506's new in the box. These are getting a little harder to find with the Covid. So I grabbed a pair to compare with the DT-770's. I mostly just wanted to try them on, to see if the pads were comfortable enough for my big ears. But they wouldn't let me do it in the store. So I just bought the damn things. They at least gave me a pretty good discount on them.

If they don't fit comfortably, then they'll go right back. And probably be replaced by another HP.

 

[bagwell359]

Sennheiser HD600

Right. Get them used for well under the price ceiling. Toss in a digital parametric EQ ....

 

[ADUHF]

Impedances & damping factors for some headphones and mixers I'm trying. A higher damping factor is generally better, provided there's also adequate power to drive the headphones to a good volume without adding any noise. DF values are in boldface.

	Yamaha MG10 (110 ohms):	Yamaha MG06X (33 ohms):	Mackie Mix8 (22 ohms):
Beyerdynamic DT-770 (250 ohms):	2.27	7.58	11.36
Beyerdynamic DT-770 (80 ohms):	0.73	2.42	3.64
AudioTechinca M50x (38 ohms):	0.35	1.15	1.73
Max Power Before Clip:	100 mW/channel w/40 ohm load	24 mW/channel w/40 ohm load	?? mW/channel

The Yamaha mixers have 26 dB pads on their mic inputs btw, which allows them to be used with unbalanced -10 dBV consumer line level audio sources (like on my TV). This allows me to use the 2-high/low EQ controls on the MG06X or the 3-low/mid/high EQ controls on the MG10 with the analog audio from my TV, with relative ease.

The preamps on the mic inputs do change the sound quality a bit though, vs. using the regular unbalanced line level inputs on the mixers (with no mic preamps).

 

[JediMa70]

As it seems that I started a too close topic it's better If I bring on the thing here, I've read all your comments but i still can't find the one choice, for a neutral closed back on budget, I'm getting used to good sounding headphones so it's never easy to step down because of budget but it's also true that there are very good deals for the price so if you had to pick one between
AKG K361 Beyerdynamic DT-250 - KRK KNS-8400 and Sennheiser HD andsennheiser HD 25 SP II which one would you pick?

 

[ADUHF]

Thank you for the question JediMa70. Fwiw, I wasn't ignoring your post in the other topic. I've just been tied up the last few days trying to assemble some new gear, and didn't have time to respond yet. Normally the shoe is on the other foot, and I'm the one asking for other people's opinions here.

I'm not sure I can shed a whole lot of light on the above question. I have only listened to the AKG K361, briefly at GC. And I tried the HD 25 on, and I think I may have listened to one or two tunes on it. But probably not enough to give you a useful opinion. The HD 25 is an on-ear HP, and it clamps fairly tightly (at the least the one I tried did). And it was fairly painful on my ears. So I didn't spend much time with it. Some seem to like it though.

The AKG K361 was not as articulate to my ears as the K371, or for that matter the AKG K553. The K553 is a very big headphone, designed for very large heads though. So unless you are Paul Bunyan, I'd probably suggest the K371 between the two. You may like the sound of the K361 as well. I found it sort of blah and uninteresting on GC's store feed. But I didn't really put it through its paces with a good amp and sound source. So it may sound just fine with other better gear than they had in the store.

Someone in the AKG K361/K371 topic mentioned that the K361 had plastic diaphragms, while the K371 (and I believe also the K553) use titanium. Titanium diaphragms are stiffer than plastic diaphragms, which should tend to reduce distortion on them, giving them a little better clarity. That may be why the K361 seemed less articulate and duller sounding to me than the other two closed-back AKGs. I haven't confirm any of this with AKG, or anyone else though. Or tried to open up either of the HPs to take a closer look.

The titanium may also give the K371 a little sharper, crisper sound in the treble... which some may like, and some may not. Imo though, there is a fairly noticeable bright spot (or spots) in the treble on the K371, and maybe also the upper midrange, which probably needs a little tweaking. I also found the bass on the K371 somewhat lacking in the warmth that I usually like down low, though certainly well-extended.

I have not tried the Beyer DT-250, Senn HD 569, or I think the KRK 8400. Maybe some others can shed a little more light on some of those. FYI, if you're used to listening only to open-back headphones, then many of the closed-back HPs discussed here may have an overly bassy sound to your ears. That is by design. Because many of the headphones (and also the the target response curve I use) are designed to have more of a "room sound", with more gain in the lower frequencies.

 

[ADUHF]

I'm still goin through alot of the options here myself btw. But I think I'm probably leaning toward the 250-ohm Beyer DT-770 for at least one of my picks at this point. I really like the sound of this HP, particularly on a lower impedance amp, more in the ~25 ohm range. And it is very easy to EQ. (Though I would say it almost doesn't even need any when paired with the correct amp.)

There are a couple of caveats though. Both of the DT-770's that I'm using right now appear to have a little channel imbalance, which seems to favor the right channel. This is something I did not notice when listening to the demos units in stores. Possibly because I have more hearing loss in my right ear than in my left. If you have normal hearing in both ears though, then you may need some type of balance control on your amp with these to correct any potential left-right imbalances.

I think there probably also is a bit of dark spot somewhere in the upper midrange or lower treble around that notch that I pointed out on the 250-ohm DT-770 difference plot, somewhere in 3.5 kHz range. I don't seem to notice it as much on the lower impedance amps though, as on the 110 ohm amp.

Also, the 250 and 80 ohm DT-770's don't really sound identical to me. Imo, the 250 ohm is better extended in both the bass and treble. Whereas the 80 is more mid-forward by comparison. I'm not entirely sure if this is a function of the particular gear I'm using, but on the above mixers, which range from 110 to 22 ohms, both HPs seem to get more mid-foward and also warmer-sounding on the lower impedance amps. Whereas a higher impedance amp seems to bring out the ends of the frequency spectrum more, esp. on the 250-ohm model.

The 80 ohm version seemed a bit too mid-friendly to me on the lower impedance amps. Whereas, the 250-ohm seemed to get "flatter" and more neutral-sounding on the lower impedance amps (which is a good thing in my book), and more "smiley" sounding on the 110 ohm amp. I'm not sure whether it's the impedance or the power (in milliwatts) of the amps which is making the difference though. Or possibly some other factors in the mixers. Questions like that are probably still above my HP IQ.

If this pattern holds up though on lower impedance devices, then I suspect that the 80-ohm version might sound very mid-friendly indeed on an amp more in the 1 ohm or less range, like you would find on many portable devices. So I'm not sure if it would really be the better choice for those, at least in terms of its tonal balance. The 80 ohm would probably be a little easier to drive though on a very low impedance amp.

If this pattern holds up, then you could also potentially use the different impedance settings on an amp a bit like a Fletcher-Munson adjustment, to control the smiliness or frowniness of the DT-770, particularly the 250 ohm version. Which is sort of interesting. And maybe use that a bit like an EQ control to tweak the sound of the headphones for listening at different volumes... Maybe I'm just telling you guys and gals stuff that you already know though.

I would probably still want to keep a basic EQ handy with these HPs, to tweak the bass and treble a little more to my taste for different types of music, for example. The controls on the mixers work pretty well for this. Esp. the 3-channel EQ controls with low, mid, and high frequency adjustments, which also allow you to add (or subtract) a little more emphasis in the upper midrange if needed, around any potential dark (or bright) spots there.

 

[ADUHF]

I did briefly try out the Sony MDR-7506. It was more comfortable on my ears than the AT M50x. But still not a very good fit imo. So I returned it.

Very nice bass. Mids sounded maybe a little hollow on my gear. If the MDR-7506 behaves similarly to the DT-770 though, then the SQ might improve on lower impedance devices. I did notice some sibilance in some spots in the treble at times. Whether you'd hear it on a lower impedance amp, I can't say though.

I ran across a couple pair of white AT M50x's as well (which are pretty hard to find right now, in either color), so I brought one of those home to try as well. They are one of the most uncomfortable over-ear HPs that I've ever put on my head! So there's a good chance they'll also go back. They actually made me miss the Sony a little.

The M50x is fairly easy to EQ as well,... if you can figure out a way to get them to fit comfortably on your ears. I kind of stick my lobes in, and let the pads press on the upper helix of the pinna. The cups are so damn small on these, that is the only way I can hear them. I'm sure it's not a good thing to have that much pressure on your ears though, for any length of time. I wrestled briefly in HS, and some of my friends on the team got cauliflower ear from stuff like that (and other strange diseases). It was not one of my favorite sports.

If you're goin to spend any kind of time with the M50x (particulary the white version), then I'd suggest experimenting with some better-fitting, and (hopefully) more comfortable aftermarket pads, maybe a bit larger in circumference. I'd like a 2nd pair of HPs as a backup to the DT-770's. So I might possibly give this a try before returning the M50x. Or I might get one of the open Beyers, or somethin else, for a little different change of pace.

 

[JediMa70]

OH don't worry I was only trying to keep the posts all together, I'm never in hurry I just wait for good replies like yours!
About Sony and Beyer, I tried them both but those cables are a real pain and i don't like not detachable cables, so It seems that the K371 are a better option, more comfortable bette cable, I guess easy to drive. So just sound wise do you think that ATH 50 are truly neutral?

 

[ADUHF]

OH don't worry I was only trying to keep the posts all together, I'm never in hurry I just wait for good replies like yours!
About Sony and Beyer, I tried them both but those cables are a real pain and i don't like not detachable cables, so It seems that the K371 are a better option, more comfortable bette cable, I guess easy to drive. So just sound wise do you think that ATH 50 are truly neutral?

Thank you for the compliment. The fixed coiled cable is one of my least favorite features on the 250 ohm Beyer DT-770. I much prefer the straight cable on the 80 ohm. But would also prefer a detachable cable, if that was an option. I think I like the sound quality on the 250 ohm enough to put up with some inconvenience though from the cable. I'm still lookin at other options though. Modding the DT-770 to work with other kinds of cables (including detachable) is probably no more or less difficult than most other HPs though, if someone had the time or the desire to do that.

As far as the AT M50x is concerned, I'm trying not to think about them unless or until I can figure out a better solution for the earpads. And I'm not sure I'll keep them even then.

The M50x is a very divisive headphone. Some will say it's too bright,... or too bassy,... or too V-shaped. Depending on how it's driven, and the type of music you listen to, it could be a little of all the above. I have found them to be a useful touchstone though when comparing different headphones at Guitar Center. Their frequency response is a bit uneven though. And they are a little bright (and also dark) in some spots in the treble, and have a bit too much emphasis in the upper bass, which makes them sound a little boomy at times. I think you can pretty much see all of that on the difference plot below...



They are fairly well-balanced overall though, which is why I tend to come back to them as a reference when listening in the stores...



And have fairly low distortion...

https://www.rtings.com/headphones/1-4/graph#295/4029

And also a little more comfortable after they've been broken in. The white version that I purchased brand new is exceedingly uncomfortable on my head though with the stock pads. And it's very difficult for me to get a reliable consistent fit and sound from them as a result.

The AKG K371's are also pretty okay sounding headphones, with some of the caveats I've posted previously. Namely, the lack of some warmth in the bass, and the bright spot in the treble at around 7.5 to 10 kHz. Some also find them a bit too rolled off in the upper treble, above the aforementioned bright spot. And also a bit too forward or sharp in the upper mids at around 2.5 to 3 kHz.

Unless you are a very studious listener though, some of this could be splitting hairs. And it is certainly possible to make tweaks to any of the above HPs with an EQ (something I recommend btw), if you aren't completely satisfied with their out-of-box sound.

I have tried the K371 on btw, and given them a listen a few times at GC. So when I suggest that they may have a little glare in the treble, and are a bit lacking in some warmth in the bass, that is from both listening and looking at the graphs. They are more comfortable than the M50x. But I'm not a huge fan of their hinged design, or headband extenders, which are rather unwieldy to me. I think I could probably get over my dislike of those features after awhile though.

I noticed some imbalances in their sound as well, like on my old AKG K553's. And I'm sure the pads would not hold up with the kind of heavy use I would likely give them. And I am somewhat reluctant to give another AKG a try, after using another pair for so long. And think I may be lookin for something a little different in terms of sound, construction, etc. at this point. The K371 is still on my shortlist though. And they are probably one of the better options at the moment if your are looking for a more neutral-sounding closed headphone. Especially one with good extension in the sub-bass, which seems to be one of its main selling points.

To get the very best sound quality from either the AT M50x or K371, I would recommend pairing them with a low impedance amp of 5 ohms or less. Both are fairly easy to drive.

 

[JediMa70]

This is a fantastic reply and It was really helpful, somehow I like the design of ATH and yes they are very popular but also loved and hated. K371 seems really the best option, i've many headphones on the warm - bassy side and so they seem to be a real good addition to my set of headphones and at least here in italy they cost less than ATH.

Thank you