[gsferrari]

Quote:

Originally posted by gpalmer Sorry, but you seem to be babbling here although you correctly used the confused icon for your thoughts. How are these situations even vaguely related? If you were paying to post on this forum and learn from it you might have a point, since you aren't I don't see your point. Are you trying to argue that once you buy a headphone from AA, you should send them a check for using it? Hey, it's a free country, knock yourself out! I have bought products from HeadRoom that in turn funded the forum, so you seem to have missed the point. I also have bought a pretty good chunk of stuff through the Amazon link which also funds the forum. Another straw man from you, nobody demanded you buy products anywhere. If you can't argue your case based on the facts maybe you shouldn't argue your case...

I agree I was babbling and indulging the straw men - hope this makes you look intelligent

tyll's post was a thinly veiled post which shows how frustrated he is with the fact that some of us offer patronage to other stores. He resorted to bashing them which is quite hilarious

Point is - like I said before - which you obviously chose to ignore - My respect, admiration and appreciation are with Headroom, TTVJ etc. - but how my money is spent is up to me.

Honestly - the Headroom website was not responsible for my choice of equipment. I made those decisions based on the reviews at goodcans.com and other web-based reviews.

So they pay for the forums and its upkeep - sweet

but I dont feel obligated in any way - They are doing what is in their best interests - I am doing what i think is best for me.

peace!!

I grovel in front of gpalmers infinite wisdom and his ability to win an argument by belittling the other's statements...very intelligent way to conduct a debate...yes indeed

 

[Elec]

I tend to have two different modes which determine where I buy from and how much I'm willing to spend.

1) I just want the damn thing. I already know what I want, it's REALLY what I want, there's no way in hell I'll return it, so what if it's defective, don't bug me with your service, just gimme gimme gimme CHEAP! It does happen sometimes, and my main qualifications are low price, fast shipping, ease of purchase. I want to go buy from a 24/7 automated web site where my order will be filled the next day by a robot and delivered to my door in 4 days, after which all records of my ever having purchased anything from the place vanish. Ok, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but you get the point. I want the thing, and not extra help or service or frills and because of that, I want a low price. This is when I go buy from Walmart or online megastores. You may be Customer #357293 to them, but it's fast and cheap - you get the product and nothing else, and sometimes that's great.

2) I want quality service or assurance. Maybe I'm not sure about the purchase. I don't know if I'll want to keep it or I'm worried it might not perform like I think. I want extra peace of mind. I want to know that I'll be taken care of if I have a problem and that an actual human being is available to talk to me. Maybe I want product selection advice or to talk to someone who knows about what they're selling. This is when I buy from Headroom or Todd. This is when I go to a small local computer shop instead of Best Buy. It's great being able to call up and talk to Todd for a while and knowing you can audition something for a month if necessary. It's great being able to call Headroom if you have a problem and not be on hold for 17 hours. This is good service, and it's worth paying a premium for, IF it's what you want. Sometimes I do, and sometimes I don't, and no one can blame me for that.

My local hi fi shop sells Senns and Grados and their prices are somewhat higher than Headroom's on pretty much every model. They also let me spend an hour listening to thousands of dollars worth of gear while sitting in a comfy leather chair in a private room for no reason other than that I stopped in and knew a bit about headphones. It's all about price vs. perks and what you're willing to spend for what you get. Some people just want the headphones for cheap. Some people want to be able to call up Tyll and ask for his impressions on a certain headphone or the new TAH. Some people want to go sit in a leather chair and listen to RS-2s on a Cary Audio CD player. There's nothing wrong with any of these things, it's just different levels of service. If you buy from SuperCorp because they're cheap, great! If you buy from Headroom because they support the community and give you personal service, great! If you buy from the local hi fi shop because you can audition gear in person, great! The only thing that would REALLY piss me off is finding out people were buying from Headroom or Todd to audition for 30 days, returning the gear, then buying it from the cheapest place they can find. That smacks of abuse, but it's not really what's being discussed here either.

 

[Genetic]

Quote:

Originally posted by gpalmer Interesting, your University let you attend for free (...) and doesn't try contacting you every year for donations. I can tell you mine have the persistance of a bill collector.

Hi gpalmer,


I'll be perfectly honest with you. The computer I'm using at home is part of a research project: it cost me nothing

. I wont make a big fuss about it but you're right : I'm paid for studying

. But as you know there's very few «free lunchs». For that I'm grateful. On the other hand when universities hire me for teaching, they dont pay me on the same basis as a regular professor.
When all be said and done about my formation rest assure all those fine institutions will have a new target for donations

.

Regards

 

[gpalmer]

Quote:

Originally posted by genetic Hi gpalmer, I'll be perfectly honest with you. The computer I'm using at home is part of a research project: it cost me nothing . I wont make a big fuss about it but you're right : I'm paid for studying . But as you know there's very few «free lunchs». For that I'm grateful. On the other hand when universities hire me for teaching, they dont pay me on the same basis as a regular professor. When all be said and done about my formation rest assure all those fine institutions will have a new target for donations . Regards

LOL, I heard the inside details from some of the folks like you that went through school on school supported programs, and it always struck me that the schools more than got their money's worth out of you in the end!

 

[Genetic]

Quote:

Originally posted by gpalmer LOL, I heard the inside details from some of the folks like you that went through school on school supported programs, and it always struck me that the schools more than got their money's worth out of you in the end!

Hi gpalmer,

«Supported programs»?. I don't want to sound elitist but the only «program» that can be apply to my situation has nothing to do with underprivilege students

Regards,

P.S. Also, I dont want to leave the impression that I'm wronfully taking the role of a poor student. Like you I apprehend the tax season

.

 

[gpalmer]

I figured you were acting in the role of a TA or research assistant, either way you pay with your time and effort.

 

[Genetic]

Quote:

Originally posted by gpalmer I figured you were acting in the role of a TA or research assistant, either way you pay with your time and effort.

Try research associate

. But you are right with the time and effort. The various senior researchers are always putting pressure. The better you are the more ......

Regards,

 

[rsaavedra]

Quote:

Originally posted by Elec The only thing that would REALLY piss me off is finding out people were buying from Headroom or Todd to audition for 30 days, returning the gear, then buying it from the cheapest place they can find. That smacks of abuse, but it's not really what's being discussed here either.

That wouldn't make sense at all to do. Audioadvisor for example also offers 30 day money back guarantee as well, and many other audio dealers on line do too. People can try a product getting it from the cheapest place they find in the first place, why would you think people would want to try a product from a place where it has a larger price tag? And then go through the cost of returning etc.? I think you are getting pissed off at an unlikely "abuse" that is just a bad idea for the consumer in the first place.

 

[Silby]

I think that the discussion at hand has turned to oppinions on loyalty versus personal interest. However I maintain that this is a myopic view of the situation. I will illustrate a parallel in medicine. Medical companies, after they discover a new drug have exclusive rights to sell the drug for a period ranging between 10 to 20 years before generic version can be sold. If it wasn't for this opportunity for the drug companies to reap a benefit of their investment, they would cease investing in new research. The difference is that in the headphone community there is no regulatory administration that confers benefits of exclusivity, allowing for any vendor to benefit from the major in vestment of a given vendor or small group of vendors. If the only thing that people are willing to pay is the price of parts and labor, then that doesn't leave any money for R&D. And if none of us cared about the new stuff coming out, we wouldn't belong to this community, but that is exactly what will happen, because companies simply would not be able to compete while experiencing extra costs that will not be returned, as the profit margin of each unit becomes negligible.

I also hope that nobody who is in favor of the cheapest price possible complains when there are a numer of people unemployed whom their tax dollars will go to. Watch Lou Dobbs to see the effects.

The only other point I would like to make regards the following statement by gsferrari

So you're saying that if prices go down then we will lose out on the high end?? Then thats just perfect...after all you are just a small % of the market anyway - Sennheiser etc. will focus its attention on the <$50.00 market to target a larger customer base...they dont care - you think they do??

They might not care but we do, and that is the point. I don't want $50 headphones to be my only choice other than a market on nice headphones to become so small that the prices are prohibitively expensive.

-Silby

 

[Distroyed]

This brings up the question of how much does a factory like Senn charge a headphone that "retails" at $500 it's distributors? Don't the product creators charge a flat rate to the distributors and whatever the distributor sells it for above that is their profit? If this is true, than Senn isn't the one being hurt, at all, but the distributor. It wouldn't change the availability of quality products at all, it would just "weed out" pricier distributors. So is the above scenario accurate?

 

[Hirsch]

Quote:

Originally posted by Distroyed This brings up the question of how much does a factory like Senn charge a headphone that "retails" at $500 it's distributors? Don't the product creators charge a flat rate to the distributors and whatever the distributor sells it for above that is their profit? If this is true, than Senn isn't the one being hurt, at all, but the distributor. It wouldn't change the availability of quality products at all, it would just "weed out" pricier distributors. So is the above scenario accurate?

There is no set rule. If an item is in high demand, a company may be able to sell at a higher price to its distributors, who will make their money on volume, etc. etc.

For most high-end audio, this will be close: Distributor takes a 100% markup from manufacturer. Dealer takes a 100% markup from distributor. Overly simplistic, but it's a pretty good estimate. Through normal brick and mortar channels, the manufacturer would see about 25% of the MSRP.

 

[kelesh]

oh well. if anybody is wondering, i ordered from AA and payed with paypal(another plus since i sell things on ebay).

maybe one day when I am not a poor student I will support headroom and others, but the HD650's are already wickedly overpriced in my opinion at $350 so I don't want to spend an extra $100 just to support the forums. If there were a pay-$20-per-year option to support the forums(and maybe get a few extra privileges, like over at anandtech forums), I would gladly fork that over. An extra 15-25% on every audio purchase is too painful for me though.

Especially since reading these forums has spurred the famous wallet emptying addiction that we're all familiar with.

I just bought a $200 meta42 amp to replace my klipsch promedia's BASH amp and ordered hd650's and an Oehlbach cable ($350 + $63) to replace my 1.5 month old hd580's. I will probably notice very little difference between my original and upgraded setups, but i cannot help myself.

 

[mjg]

kelesh,


SOunds like you did good for yourself. I hope you enjoy your new gear. The meta42 should be a real good first amp, and I'm sure you willbe pleased. Also, at 350 you said you paid, that was an excellent deal, and I don't blame you.


If not for nothing, i like the idea of an arbitrary donation to show your support for the forum. Could anything be learned from this thread? We are all interested in these forums, and perhaps this is a good way to support it.

 

[Elec]

Quote:

Originally posted by rsaavedr That wouldn't make sense at all to do. Audioadvisor for example also offers 30 day money back guarantee as well, and many other audio dealers on line do too. People can try a product getting it from the cheapest place they find in the first place, why would you think people would want to try a product from a place where it has a larger price tag? And then go through the cost of returning etc.? I think you are getting pissed off at an unlikely "abuse" that is just a bad idea for the consumer in the first place.

I'm not pissed off about it, it was a for-instance. As in, "People shopping for the lowest price doesn't bug me but something like this would." You're right that many places online have 30 day money back policies but suppose the HD650 became available at Best Buy for cheap? I would have felt slightly bad auditioning the HD600s at my local hi fi shop and then buying from Headroom because they were cheaper. I doubt people ARE buying from Headroom to try something out, then returning it to buy elsewhere cheaper, but I don't doubt they might if they had the opportunity. But this isn't really where I wanted to go, so I'm done

 

[Elec]

Quote:

Originally posted by Silby I think that the discussion at hand has turned to oppinions on loyalty versus personal interest. However I maintain that this is a myopic view of the situation. I will illustrate a parallel in medicine. Medical companies, after they discover a new drug have exclusive rights to sell the drug for a period ranging between 10 to 20 years before generic version can be sold. If it wasn't for this opportunity for the drug companies to reap a benefit of their investment, they would cease investing in new research. The difference is that in the headphone community there is no regulatory administration that confers benefits of exclusivity, allowing for any vendor to benefit from the major in vestment of a given vendor or small group of vendors. If the only thing that people are willing to pay is the price of parts and labor, then that doesn't leave any money for R&D. And if none of us cared about the new stuff coming out, we wouldn't belong to this community, but that is exactly what will happen, because companies simply would not be able to compete while experiencing extra costs that will not be returned, as the profit margin of each unit becomes negligible. I also hope that nobody who is in favor of the cheapest price possible complains when there are a numer of people unemployed whom their tax dollars will go to. Watch Lou Dobbs to see the effects. The only other point I would like to make regards the following statement by gsferrari So you're saying that if prices go down then we will lose out on the high end?? Then thats just perfect...after all you are just a small % of the market anyway - Sennheiser etc. will focus its attention on the <$50.00 market to target a larger customer base...they dont care - you think they do?? They might not care but we do, and that is the point. I don't want $50 headphones to be my only choice other than a market on nice headphones to become so small that the prices are prohibitively expensive. -Silby

As others have mentioned, I don't think we have to worry about Sennheiser or Grado. They get theirs so long as you buy, and it doesn't matter from whom. The people at risk are the distributors and resellers. R&D expenses for drug companies are phenomenal, in large part because of the nature of the business where your product needs to A) work and B) not harm anyone. R&D for audio companies is not quite as expensive though it is significant. I've always been glad that Headroom offered their own line of amps because it gives their company added value and is an additional product offering you just can't get anywhere else.

I'm occasionally in favor of the cheapest price possible, but not at all costs. I'm unemployed and I get zero dollars and zero cents from anybody's taxes. When I was employed, I paid taxes. Because I'm an idiot trying to get IN to IT and software engineering now, I'm well aware of the whole situation with Lou Dobbs, outsourcing jobs to third world countries for slave wages, and the impact this has on jobs and the economy. Unfortunately in this case, it's not the result of cheapest-price-possible, as the cost savings are not passed on to the customers. It's a direct result of corporate greed and the goal is to produce product at say, India prices and sell it at America prices, which is probably infeasible in the long run. With something like AA, they're not selling Senn knockoffs they acquired for $20 at $350, they're just taking a bit less for themselves on a product they probably paid as much for as any other reseller did. There's nothing wrong with that really, though it will end up cutting out the extras after some time. So the point is, do you want a company who will take a small cut and just give you the product and little else, or do you want a company who will take a bigger profit but use some of it to reinvest in things like headphone amps, frequency response measurements, a demo program, etc. The extras are nice, but some people don't want to pay for them. It's always been that way.