[Zoide]

Strange! I actually think the 2500s leak both ways just as much or even more than the Beyer DT-990s and the Grado RS-1s. You can hear the music quite loud from the outside, and when I'm wearing them I can even hear myself type. I can even hear the mouse click if the music isn't very loud!).

 

[tbritton]

Digitalmind,

Could you find a different term other than "echo" to describe what you are hearing? I'm an audio guy, and echo means a definitely audible delay, and one that is definitely of much longer duration than any slapback echo effect that one could possibly hear in the extremely short distance to "the wall" inside a pair of headphones. Is this more of a "reverb" effect you hear?

I'm asking because I've heard both terms - "echo" and "reverb" tossed around in reviews of headphones, and neither term makes any sense from a recording engineer's viewpoint. (I'm one of those monsters. We pre-destroy your audio before any headphones can get a-hold of it!) Both "echo" and "reverb" are things we would add in much greater dimensions to become audible than would be possible unaided from within a headphone's can-space, at least that's what makes sense to me.

Could you possibly be actually hearing the recording space's/room's acoustics in sensitive headphones like the Prolines? I can actually hear the distance that a mic is from a guitar-amp's speaker cabinet using my Proline 750s, and that is a very, very good thing! (But, then, I know what those small distance and angle differences sound like from doing mic setups myself... but the point is that sensitive headphones should pick up the same information that sensitive mics pick up, and the Proline's definitely do do that.)

Terry

 

[digitalmind]

Yes, they leak, but they are still covering atleast part of the driver with solid material. It's not an obvious echo, at all. It's just one of those things that once you catch it, you'll keep noticing it, same as the slight sibilance on my K-1000 setup. You can go months or years without hearing it, then once it catches your attention you can't let go of it. The echo I'm trying to describe is very short and quick after the initial tone, not a "wishing well" or mountain echo by any means.

 

[digitalmind]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbritton /img/forum/go_quote.gif Digitalmind, Could you find a different term other than "echo" to describe what you are hearing? I'm an audio guy, and echo means a definitely audible delay, and one that is usually of much longer duration than any slapback echo effect that one could possibly hear in the extremely short distance to "the wall" inside a pair of headphones. Is this more of a "reverb" effect you hear? I'm asking because I've heard both terms - "echo" and "reverb" tossed around in reviews of headphones, and neither term makes any sense from a recording engineer's viewpoint. (I'm one of those monsters. We pre-destroy your audio before your headphones can get a-hold of it!) Both are things we would add in much greater dimensions than possible in a headphone's can-space to be audible at all, at least that's what makes sense to me. Terry

Terry,
I suppose Reverb comes closest to it. It's a short and quick quieter copy of the initial tone, right behind the initial tone. Far from a real echo that you can hear shouting into a well or on mountains. I suppose it comes from the back of the driver, bouncing off of the closed shell and mixing with the sound when the initial tone should have died off. That would explain why I haven't heard it with very open headphones.

I think your "slapback echo effect" is exactly what I'm hearing. I had considered this before but I never believed it because I thought the time that the "echo or reverb" needed to get back to my ears would be way too short so it would fall in with the original tone, but I did clearly hear it. The only closed headphone I have here is a DT770, and that's far too muddy and slow in order for me to distinguish the echo/reverb.

 

[Zoide]

Quote:

Originally Posted by digitalmind /img/forum/go_quote.gif You can go months or years without hearing it, then once it catches your attention you can't let go of it.

Then I better forget that I read your post and never think about it again!! Away demon!!

 

[tbritton]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoide /img/forum/go_quote.gif Then I better forget that I read your post and never think about it again!! Away demon!!

Hah! Ditto here!

Terry

 

[Dexdexter]

Some briefer, even more delayed impressions from me:

Highlights:

Easy, the K-1000s. The ease of delivery and spatial presentation was simply incredible! Rik's siamese-croc set-up was very nice indeed and did these wonderful ear-speakers right. As did the Heed, I'm pleased to say.

I was struck by just how similar the K-1000 were to my PROline 2500. Not as much slam in the bass department, but if I didn't already have the Ultrasones, I could happily settle on these AKGs, at least for jazz and acoustic music.

Kees' Rudistor amp. Sounded excellent with both the balanced 650s and PROline 2500. One lovely bit of kit!

BigEar's Stax set-up was also superfine, with a lovely smooth airy quality and the feeling that I could listen to them for hours without fatigue.

The AKG K301 through Blackmore's Aspen was very intriguing, but I'm not sure I could live with it.

The two other Go-Vibes onhand, from Bonesinc and Charles were interestingly different from mine and have inspired me to begin trying other op-amps in my V5S.

Finally, to my ears, nothing surpassed my 2500. A very pleasant surprise. But meet conditions are really best for getting a taste, and hardly conclusive. I just didn't hear anything other than the K-1000 that I'd want to pursue any further, though I could happily live with the balanced HD650 or the Stax Omega.

What:

AKG K81DJ. How this has achieved the popularity it has is simply beyond me. Nice top-end, until the first bass note hits, then it's all downhill.

Regrets:

Although I tried a few different models, I just wasn't able to "get" the Grado sound. But I love the look and the feel and I hope to spend some more time with Grados at the upcoming meet in Dusseldorf.

The day went by too fast!

 

[tbritton]

Quote:

Originally Posted by digitalmind /img/forum/go_quote.gif Terry, I suppose Reverb comes closest to it. It's a short and quick quieter copy of the initial tone, right behind the initial tone. Far from a real echo that you can hear shouting into a well or on mountains. I suppose it comes from the back of the driver, bouncing off of the closed shell and mixing with the sound when the initial tone should have died off. That would explain why I haven't heard it with very open headphones. I think your "slapback echo effect" is exactly what I'm hearing. I had considered this before but I never believed it because I thought the time that the "echo or reverb" needed to get back to my ears would be way too short so it would fall in with the original tone, but I did clearly hear it. The only closed headphone I have here is a DT770, and that's far too muddy and slow in order for me to distinguish the echo/reverb.

That would be such a short slap-back that it would be perceived as a phase anomaly, comb-filtering the audio at some frequencies, but not perceivable as an "echo" per se. (remember that "hollow" effect from the old boxy headsets?) There must be something else going on. Not doubting you are hearing something, just can't conceive of it being an "echo" that you hear.


Terry

 

[digitalmind]

Hm, now I've gotten really interested in this. Say the distance from the rear of the driver to the outer shell is 1cm, that'd make for a 2cm distance before it mingles in with the sound again. Given that sound travels at roughly 340m/s, that'd make for a 5.9*10^-5 seconds (17kHz) delay. I don't believe that's audible and certainly not the kind of "short" echo/reverb that I'm talking about.

What could it be then? Could it be the driver still in motion after the current has been passed through? Maybe, though in that case I don't see why I can only hear it with semi-closed and closed headphones. If that were what I'm hearing it should be audible with any dynamic headphone. Maybe closed back headphones just accentuate this effect?

It's not in the amp or source either, as I heard this effect of various amps and sources. I'd like to try a good closed headphone again, to see if I can pick it up again, because I don't know what could be causing it.

Dex, I shortly spoke to you about this, do you recall hearing anything like I'm describing?

 

[tbritton]

Quote:

Originally Posted by digitalmind /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hm, now I've gotten really interested in this. Say the distance from the rear of the driver to the outer shell is 1cm, that'd make for a 2cm distance before it mingles in with the sound again. Given that sound travels at roughly 340m/s, that'd make for a 5.9*10^-5 seconds (17kHz) delay. I don't believe that's audible and certainly not the kind of "short" echo/reverb that I'm talking about. What could it be then? Could it be the driver still in motion after the current has been passed through? Maybe, though in that case I don't see why I can only hear it with semi-closed and closed headphones. If that were what I'm hearing it should be audible with any dynamic headphone. Maybe closed back headphones just accentuate this effect? It's not in the amp or source either, as I heard this effect of various amps and sources. I'd like to try a good closed headphone again, to see if I can pick it up again, because I don't know what could be causing it. Dex, I shortly spoke to you about this, do you recall hearing anything like I'm describing?

Digitalmind,

I'd edited my original reply while you were already replying to it before the addition. In my edit I asked:

Could you possibly be actually hearing the recording space's/room's acoustics in sensitive headphones like the Prolines? I can actually hear the distance that a mic is from a guitar-amp's speaker cabinet using my Proline 750s, and that is a very, very good thing! (But, then, I know what those small distance and angle differences sound like from doing mic setups myself... but the point is that sensitive headphones should pick up the same information that sensitive mics pick up, and the Proline's definitely do do that.)

Terry

 

[tbritton]

In fact, you might even be hearing the effect of noise-gates clamping down the signal into silence. Even though it is the "sound of silence" it could sound like an echo-y effect if you are listening hard, as there is a slight delay before it kicks in, typically.

Terry

 

[digitalmind]

No, I don't think that that is it. If it was, I'd definitely hear it with, in my opinion, much superior headphones like the K-1000, HE60, and Omega II.

I don't know what it is, but I'll just let it slide before it makes me all bonkers.

 

[tbritton]

Quote:

Originally Posted by digitalmind /img/forum/go_quote.gif No, I don't think that that is it. If it was, I'd definitely hear it with, in my opinion, much superior headphones like the K-1000, HE60, and Omega II. I don't know what it is, but I'll just let it slide before it makes me all bonkers.

Heh.. you and me both!!

Happy listening!

Terry

 

[Zoide]

Quote:

Originally Posted by digitalmind /img/forum/go_quote.gif Dex, I shortly spoke to you about this, do you recall hearing anything like I'm describing?

You think he would ever criticize his beloved Ultrasones?

 

[Dexdexter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by digitalmind /img/forum/go_quote.gif Dex, I shortly spoke to you about this, do you recall hearing anything like I'm describing?

Well, Rik, I don't hear anything like you've described out of my PROline 2500. With the PROline 750, I can sense a certain additional "presence" that is not there in the 2500, obviously down to its enclosed nature.

But this is really noticeable only upon immediate A/B comparison. When I listen only to the 750 for a while, it does not present any such issue for me or distract from the music, probably because it's doing pretty much everything else right. But I'm sure it's the same with any closed can.