[fewtch]

I tried an experiment tonight... I have a PCDP with (what I consider) a pretty good sounding headphone-out jack, except it has no line-out.

What I did is connect the headphone-out to my go-vibe V2, and plug a pair of Koss Portapro2's into the Go-Vibe. I set the Go-Vibe's gain to about 3:00 (3/4 of the way up), and used the volume control on the PCDP to adjust the music to a comfortable level. Then I started listening to a CD that I usually listen to only on portable gear.

The benefit was undeniable. I heard *much* more detail than I've ever heard before from this very familiar music. It was fantastic. The main benefit seemed to be in clarity and low-level (macrodynamic) musical details. Complex musical passages were handled far better. It was just overall better, better, better.

This has really sold me on the *necessity* of amping. I just don't think the internal amps in PCDP's and DAP's can handle the load of headphones very well (particularly low impedance cans), and they need something specifically designed for headphones that runs on higher voltage and has a better op-amp. There may be a lot more detail and overall SQ coming from your player than you suspect! It seems that even amping from the headphone-out jack has benefits over using the jack directly.

 

[DJ Mauler]

ya thats exactly why im considering an amp.

 

[irvin59]

Couldn't agree with you more. It also seems that sometimes the headphone out is a better source than the lineout for an amp (strange as that may sound-no pun intended) see
http://www.iaudiophile.net/forums/vi...hp?id=3408&p=1

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by irvin59 Couldn't agree with you more. It also seems that sometimes the headphone out is a better source than the lineout for an amp (strange as that may sound-no pun intended) see http://www.iaudiophile.net/forums/vi...hp?id=3408&p=1

Interesting. BTW, I found the best SQ finally by turning up the PCDP's volume all the way, then adjusting volume with the amp instead (eliminated hiss completely). Hopefully it won't damage the amp, so far it seems to be fine.

 

[azncookiecutter]

Hmmmm, which PCDP? I'm considering to get an amp for my D-NE320, but the headphone out is a bit hissy, which is a concern for me when amping it.

 

[Spad]

The reason for this is that the amp presents a much easier load for the source to drive than does a typical headphone. The amp in turn is far more capable of controlling the headphone. Good luck with convincing most "audiophiles," however.

Just trust your lying ears and forget the conventional wisdom.

 

[Kestrel]

You do realize that it isn't possible for you to get any more "detail" out of the player? Coming from a headphone out - you're just amping exactly what the PCDP is spitting back out at you.

All an amp could have possibly done in this situation is driven the headphones more effectively. If the PCDP could have done that on its own - there there is no difference. You're simply making up the results in your head and convincing yourself that it sounds better.

 

[Spad]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kestrel You do realize that it isn't possible for you to get any more "detail" out of the player? Coming from a headphone out - you're just amping exactly what the PCDP is spitting back out at you.

Not necessarily, Kestrel. For example, if your source rolls off bass response when feeding low impedance headphones, connecting the headphone output to an amp will likely cure the problem. The same can be accomplished by using higher impedance 'phones, but then the source may not be able to drive them adequately. Often an amp--even a modest one--provides a significant improvement in SQ.

 

[gloco]

I run my millet tube amp via the line out on my music hall and the difference between the millet and any pcdp/dap is undeniable. The biggest difference i notice is spatial arrangement. Instruments are more spread out between the left and right earcup and it encompasses me as if i was listening via a Home Theater rig. I tossed in a dave matthews band cd (under the table and dreaming) and i had to keep removing my grado's because dave's guitar (picking and all) was waaaay out on the far reaches of the earcups. It gave this sense of realism that i never heard before.

(back to listening)

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kestrel You do realize that it isn't possible for you to get any more "detail" out of the player? Coming from a headphone out - you're just amping exactly what the PCDP is spitting back out at you.

This isn't true, because you aren't taking into account the 'difficulty' of the analog section of the player in driving headphones. In other words, you're oversimplifying the matter a great deal.
Quote:

Originally Posted by azncookiecutter Hmmmm, which PCDP? I'm considering to get an amp for my D-NE320, but the headphone out is a bit hissy, which is a concern for me when amping it.

It's an el-cheapo you probably wouldn't want. I went through a phase of buying cheap, simple, basic PCDP's with no skip protection, and found that a couple have pretty decent sound quality.

 

[Kestrel]

Quote:

Not necessarily, Kestrel. For example, if your source rolls off bass response when feeding low impedance headphones, connecting the headphone output to an amp will likely cure the problem. The same can be accomplished by using higher impedance 'phones, but then the source may not be able to drive them adequately. Often an amp--even a modest one--provides a significant improvement in SQ.

I disagree. Then we have an issue of driving the headphones correctly - not detail coming out of the amp. The detail is there - you just cannot reproduce it correctly becaues the load on the amp is not sufficient. Detail does NOT change. Driving something more efficiently is another issue which an amp CAN cure. It's not going to magically make the music jump out and punch you in the face however.

Quote:

This isn't true, because you aren't taking into account the 'difficulty' of the analog section of the player in driving headphones. In other words, you're oversimplifying the matter a great deal.

There is no need to hide meaning behind debatable and unnecessary vocabulary. I already discussed the issue of driving them. In that case sure - an amp can assist.

People here seem to think that an amp is going to dramatically increase their listening pleasure. Most often the improvement is so ridiculously small or self conceived that it's practically non-existant. I discussed all of this in another thread. Assuming that the output is clean and able to drive whatever headphones you have - everything depends on the source. By source I mean the actual hardware as well as the recording itself. Garbage in garbage out. An amp isn't going to magically and dramatically improve your music past what the original record holds. All you're doing is getting closer and closer to the recording itself - differences which probably aren't even worth your money or time. You CANNOT improve the music beyond the source.

Source source source - needs to be drilled into people's heads.

People here seem to think spending the big bucks is going to score you amazing music. The community hype here is absolutely ridiculous. If it weren't for these forums hyping up and dramatically dressing their reviews with words to make these products seem divine - I'm sure the market would no doubt be smaller.

Good Source + Good Recording + Ability to Drive Phones + Phones = Quality music.

That's all there is to it. Simple.

Amp into a headphone out? And you claim the amp is giving you more detail? Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.

 

[grawk]

Whether you say "the detail is there", a good amp still helps reveal it at the same volume level, compared to the one built in. The benefit from a good amp is that it is optimized to musicallity rather than power or space or cost.

 

[Kestrel]

Quote:

Whether you say "the detail is there", a good amp still helps reveal it at the same volume level, compared to the one built in. The benefit from a good amp is that it is optimized to musicallity rather than power or space or cost.

Assuming we're talking about a headphone output here - Wrong. The amp isn't revealing anything. It's merely re-amping exactly what has been put out by the first amp. It isn't going to reveal anything and there isn't going to be ANY difference unless the headphones are not sufficiently powered without the added amplifier.

Why can't people understand garbage in garbage out?

Coming from a line out? It isn't "revealing" anything - it's amplifying exactly what the source is giving it. All that detail is already there - you're merely bypassing the internal amp (assuming it has one) - which could possibly have a detrimental effect on the music running through it. Nothing is changing. The amp CANNOT make the music "better" - only play it back more true to the original source.

I'm honestly sorry to burst everybody's bubbles here but so many here have the wrong idea of how exactly things tend to work. Fantasy land isn't all they've built it up to be.

There is a reason why those seriously into the sickness always scream SOURCE FIRST! SOURCE SOURCE SOURCE!

And even then - we're only getting closer and closer to the original recording. Benefits are exponentially worse as cost goes up. Nobody ever wants to believe that they wasted money however... The bitter taste in the mouth is something nobody ever wants. There are a few choice members around here who will admit they just blew a large chunk of money on something that provided little to no gains. I wish more members would step off the fantasy soap box and get back to reality.

 

[grawk]

Being insulting isn't going to prove your point. Plug an amp into a headphone out, then plug headphones into the amp. The sound will be better than if you're plugged directly into the headphone out. You can say it's not optimum, and that's true, but it doesn't mean the amp doesn't improve things.

 

[Kestrel]

Assuming that the original amp can already properly drive whatever phones you plugged in - then YES - that second external portable amp is a complete waste.

What part of garbage in garbage out do you not understand?