[EliasGwinn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrith /img/forum/go_quote.gif Some positive feedback on the DAC1 USB: I received it a few days ago and immediately began comparing it to my existing setup (Lavry DA10 + Empirical Audio Off-Ramp Turbo 2 w/ Superclock 4). They sounded about the same to me. So I brought out my secret uber test: my wife's golden ears and her lack of interest for whatever strange setup I'm making her test. She listened to both setups without knowing which was which. She preferred the DAC1 USB by a slight amount, saying it seemed to have more detail and a broader soundstage (my interpretation of her hand gestures...close together for the DA10/Off-Ramp combo vs. far apart for the DAC1 USB). I've been living with the DAC1 USB for a couple of days now and I've noticed a few other things: Windows sounds (the clicks and pops and beeps in the UI) actually sound right (previously these were usually a bit distorted, or clipped at the beginning), the sound meter in Foobar2000 is not delayed by several seconds anymore, and my sound during games works a lot better even when playing music in the background with Foobar2000. I attribute all of these problems to M-Audio's lousy USB drivers. I understand that Empirical Audio will soon have a firmware update that makes the Off-Ramp work like the DAC1 USB (using Windows' USB driver), so maybe that will help there. Also, I'm able to listen to music resampled to 96K in Foobar2000 without any problems using the USB connection (something I have never been able to do with my other USB audio devices). Sound-wise the DAC1 USB really does seem to be improved. I changed to a Lavry DA10 in mid 2006 from a Benchmark DAC1 (built in late 2005) after my wife picked the Lavry in a blind comparison. And that late 2005 DAC1 sounded significantly better than my original (late 2003?) DAC1. Congratulations on the continued improvements to a wonderful DAC. By the way, I have had one wish for the DAC1 since I first started using them in late 2003: an on/off switch. Well, and I always wished for a USB or Firewire input, but that wish has finally been granted.

Scrith,

I'm glad you and your wife enjoy the DAC1 USB!!

We will keep in mind your suggestion for adding a power switch. We really appreciate feedback from our customers, so feel free to keep it coming!!

Thanks,
Elias

 

[clar2391]

This is a great thread with lots of useful information!

Since reading about the various forms and levels of distortion created by the various media players, it occurred to me that there must be a player out there with no volume control, or at least one where the volume control could be disabled.

I seem to remember a previous version of Foobar where the volume control was a plug-in that could be removed if not needed. The current version doesn't seem to offer this option.

I've searched all over the internet for a way to disable the volume controls in Windows Media Player, iTunes, and Foobar, but no luck finding anything.

I know that I can just check the volume controls in the various players to be sure they're at 100%, but it seems a better solution would be to just take the volume control out of the equation.

Does anyone know if such a thing exists?

 

[audioengr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by clar2391 /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is a great thread with lots of useful information! Since reading about the various forms and levels of distortion created by the various media players, it occurred to me that there must be a player out there with no volume control, or at least one where the volume control could be disabled. I seem to remember a previous version of Foobar where the volume control was a plug-in that could be removed if not needed. The current version doesn't seem to offer this option. I've searched all over the internet for a way to disable the volume controls in Windows Media Player, iTunes, and Foobar, but no luck finding anything. I know that I can just check the volume controls in the various players to be sure they're at 100%, but it seems a better solution would be to just take the volume control out of the equation. Does anyone know if such a thing exists?

If you use Foobar 0.8.3, then you just remove the volume control DSP tool from the "active" column. If you dont have Foobar 0.8.3, email me and I'll attach it in a return email. I will rename the extension so that your mail filters allow it. Just change it back to .exe . Foobar2000 version 0.8.3 is still the best sounding player IMO.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

 

[Jon L]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrith /img/forum/go_quote.gif Some positive feedback on the DAC1 USB: Also, I'm able to listen to music resampled to 96K in Foobar2000 without any problems using the USB connection (something I have never been able to do with my other USB audio devices).

Thanks for your impressions. Since the new DAC-1 is fed by USB, do you have impressions of old DAC-1 vs. new DAC-1 when fed via spdif?

In addition, since Benchmark upsamples everything to 110kHz anyway, have you tried setting the SRC resampler to 110kHz instead of 96kHz?

Actually, I don't think Benchmark upsamples to exactly 110 kHz; Elias, what is the precise upsampling frequency of DAC-1?

 

[EliasGwinn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon L /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks for your impressions. Since the new DAC-1 is fed by USB, do you have impressions of old DAC-1 vs. new DAC-1 when fed via spdif? In addition, since Benchmark upsamples everything to 110kHz anyway, have you tried setting the SRC resampler to 110kHz instead of 96kHz? Actually, I don't think Benchmark upsamples to exactly 110 kHz; Elias, what is the precise upsampling frequency of DAC-1?

Jon,

The exact SRC frequency is 110632.8125 Hz.

Thanks,
Elias

 

[EliasGwinn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon L /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks for your impressions. Since the new DAC-1 is fed by USB, do you have impressions of old DAC-1 vs. new DAC-1 when fed via spdif? In addition, since Benchmark upsamples everything to 110kHz anyway, have you tried setting the SRC resampler to 110kHz instead of 96kHz? Actually, I don't think Benchmark upsamples to exactly 110 kHz; Elias, what is the precise upsampling frequency of DAC-1?

After re-reading your post, I realized you are talking about setting the sample rate in foobar to match the SRC of the DAC1 USB. Unfortunately, this won't help because the USB input is limited to 96 kHz. So, it is going to get to the DAC1 USB post-software SRC down to 96 (probably).

Thanks,
Elias

 

[Jetlag]

I hope this is not considered off-topic, but since we have been speaking about native USB audio drivers...

I have not done a clean re-install of XP in over 3 years (yeah, I know), and during this time I have installed and removed lots of HW and SW. I have a feeling that my "native" USB drivers may have either been replaced, overwritten, etc at least once along the way. In particular I've had at least 3 different audio cards from 2 manufacturers, a number (3-4) of different USB audio devices and who knows what I may have forgotten. Since my new USB DAC1 will be here by the end of the week I was wondering if there was a definitive list of 'native' MS USB drivers that I could compare to my INF folder?

1. Can someone list the correct drivers (name, version, size) for XPSP2?
2. If not, can you point me to a list?
3. Finally, are there any drivers that I want to delete that may interfere with the bit-transparent audio that I am so looking forward to?

Thanks!

 

[EliasGwinn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetlag /img/forum/go_quote.gif I hope this is not considered off-topic, but since we have been speaking about native USB audio drivers... I have not done a clean re-install of XP in over 3 years (yeah, I know), and during this time I have installed and removed lots of HW and SW. I have a feeling that my "native" USB drivers may have either been replaced, overwritten, etc at least once along the way. In particular I've had at least 3 different audio cards from 2 manufacturers, a number (3-4) of different USB audio devices and who knows what I may have forgotten. Since my new USB DAC1 will be here by the end of the week I was wondering if there was a definitive list of 'native' MS USB drivers that I could compare to my INF folder? 1. Can someone list the correct drivers (name, version, size) for XPSP2? 2. If not, can you point me to a list? 3. Finally, are there any drivers that I want to delete that may interfere with the bit-transparent audio that I am so looking forward to? Thanks!

I will get a list of the drivers needed for the DAC1 USB, but you probably won't have any problems, especially if your connected to the internet. When you first plug in the DAC1 USB, if you don't have the necessary drivers, a window will pop up asking if Windows can search the web for the necessary drivers. You can choose "Yes, this time only", and it will find, download, and install the drivers you need.

As a general rule, I recommend deleting all unused, non-native drivers and software. It may or may not make a difference, but I have found that the most unusual, unexpected, and difficult problems come about from conflicts in drivers/software. I make it a habit to remove all unnecessary software from my computer, especially since you can usually go to the manufacturer's website to download the drivers if you need them again in the future.

Thanks,
Elias

 

[Jetlag]

Quote:

Originally Posted by EliasGwinn /img/forum/go_quote.gif As a general rule, I recommend deleting all unused, non-native drivers and software. It may or may not make a difference, but I have found that the most unusual, unexpected, and difficult problems come about from conflicts in drivers/software. I make it a habit to remove all unnecessary software from my computer, especially since you can usually go to the manufacturer's website to download the drivers if you need them again in the future. Thanks, Elias

I agree 100%, BUT, we all know that not all uninstall programs are created equally. Many tend to leave little software and driver 'dust bunnies' all over your HDD and sometimes it can be tricky if not downright impossible to ferret them all out.

 

[EliasGwinn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetlag /img/forum/go_quote.gif I agree 100%, BUT, we all know that not all uninstall programs are created equally. Many tend to leave little software and driver 'dust bunnies' all over your HDD and sometimes it can be tricky if not downright impossible to ferret them all out.

This is very true. An occasional, good ol' complete format and re-install is a good idea for this reason.

Thanks,
Elias

 

[little-endian]

Hi Elias,

thanks again for the details some postings ago. Wow, this is quite an active thread.

You said the optical jack had nothing to do with the capability to handle 192 kHz. What does matter then instead? Although I purchased the DAC1 via Analog Audio, I got the one, Allan Burdick was using before. So I suppose it won't be one of the newest models. If can name you the serial number if that would be of any use for you.

I'm not sure but I guess that the old version the DAC1 could be have one advantage over the USB version - when it comes to the display of errors, right? Just as a kind of "proof of concept", I hooked up some standard 5 1/4" CD-ROM to it. As long as the drive delivers the data correctly through its S/PDIF TTL connector, the sound will be exactly the same. Without much surprise, this is also the case. However, I discovered that several drives handled the output differently. Some activate their S/PDIF output until an audio track is actually being played, interrupting the signal while pause or stop. Also, the DAC1 loses sync after manually skipping the track. Only one of the drives I've tested, seems to provide a standard conform S/PDIF signal, which is all zero while reading mode 1 or 2 discs, stop or pause. Also, the signal is stable when skipping tracks. Strangly it seems to have problems when playing rewritables. Here, the DAC1 still syncs to the signal, but its "non pcm" led flashes up from time to time and hearable tickles occur.

Elias, one question in general: For the case an uncorrectable errors occur while reading an audio-cd (E32), the S/PDIF standard states a flag to declare the sent data as "invalid", so a DAC, receiving the information knows that there were errors which couldn't be reconstructed by the CD-player's C2-decoder. How does the (old) DAC1 react in such a case? Which one (if any) of the diodes will light up (from my tests I tend to believe it is the 'non pcm' led)?Because the stream itself (the error led seems to be responsable for) is still conform to the standard, no matter of the amount of errors at the user data level.

I've read the manual of the DAC1 USB. There it says that the error is displayed here by the ammount of blinking. I guess that in such experimental case, the old DAC1's error display will be more exact. Am I correct? Even if so, this "fault" of the new one will hardly be any issue for most users, since this is purely experimental. I just wondered ...

Another thing about the resampling to 110 kHz:

So sources of 192 kHz won't give a DAC1's user very much in comparison to 96 kHz, right? Besides that it is commonly contested if higher sample rates than about the ~ 44.1 - 48 kHz are of any real advantage, at all.

Some here thought about resampling audio to the sample rate which is internally used by the DAC1, before sending it via USB or S/PDIF. In the case of the USB connection, this intension will be useless already because of the limitation to 96 kHz, of course. But even when using other connections I wonder if the conversion of the DAC1 itself, which is done by the hardware from Analog Devices (as far as I know) wouldn't do this better. If this is true, every change of the sample rate would be then completely unnecessary, right?

I've already heard several claims that different DAC1 builts (year of the manufaction) would sound differently. What I think to know from you, the sonic performance had never so far (neither older DAC1s nor the new USB version). Some posts ago here, another one made this claim. If Benchmark is right, then his expericene must be pure illusion. There is not other explanation. The oft-quoted topic "jitter" doesn't seem to be one more with the products of Benchmark.

I'm keen on getting more information about all of this.

Thanks,

little-endian


PS @ all: I think most of you quote too much. This makes it hard to read through the thread (especially via mobile phones

). Remember: If everything is emphasized, actually nothing is emphasized.

 

[laxx]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetlag /img/forum/go_quote.gif I agree 100%, BUT, we all know that not all uninstall programs are created equally. Many tend to leave little software and driver 'dust bunnies' all over your HDD and sometimes it can be tricky if not downright impossible to ferret them all out.

Check out the program called Driver Cleaner. It's very nice.

 

[audioengr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by EliasGwinn /img/forum/go_quote.gif After re-reading your post, I realized you are talking about setting the sample rate in foobar to match the SRC of the DAC1 USB. Unfortunately, this won't help because the USB input is limited to 96 kHz. So, it is going to get to the DAC1 USB post-software SRC down to 96 (probably). Thanks, Elias

I have found that upsampling to 24/96 prior to the hardware 24/192 upsampler can be beneficial, depending on the software upsampler.

Steve N.

 

[EliasGwinn]

Little-Endian,

There seems to be quite a few questions here, but I'll try to address them as best I can.

-----------Question about optical input--------------------

We switched the optical jack to one that has a shutter door, replacing the one which has a removable plug/dust-cap (which was easy to lose when it wasn't used). The difference is purely mechanical, however; it does not determine the DAC1's ability to handle 192 kHz via the optical port. The determining factor is the date when it was manufactured because optical receivers were previously unable to accept 192 kHz. When receivers were available that were capable of accepting 192 kHz, we began to manufacture the DAC1 with them. This was appx. May 2004. I would be very interested to know the serial number and manufacturing date of your DAC1. Could you please PM them to me?

----------Question about error indicators-----------

As for error indications on the DAC1 Classic and the DAC1 USB, the DAC1 USB actually has the ability to indicate more accurately what the problem is. The blinking scheme is more directly correlated to the nature of the problem.

The experiment you discussed is interesting. However, I can't tell you exactly what error message would be displayed in that case because it depends on what the transport streamed. Different transports will react differently. Without investigating your experiment, if I were to guess, I would guess that the "Error" LED would light in that particular case. The "Non-PCM" LED should only occur when a digital signal is present which is not compatible with the DAC1.

----------Question about Sample-rates and conversion---------

About sample-rate conversion, the best results are achieved when the original sample-rate of the audio is left unchanged (ie, there is no sample rate conversion) before it is streamed to the DAC1.

Higher sample rates up to 96 kHz are generally agreed to be better then lower because of the added bandwidth and resolution for processing. However, most professional audio engineers (equipment manufacturers and studio engineers) believe that the technology for 192 kHz has not developed enough. This is not specific to a manufacturer; it is the state of the technology. The filter required in A-to-D conversion at 192 kHz has inherent issues, and the negatives are currently outweighing the positives.

--------Question about early DAC1's vs. later DAC1's---------

The very first generation of DAC1's (manufactured between 10/02 and 5/03) had a few things that may have affected the sound. For example, the RCA outputs had a higher impedance which may affect the sound with certain amps/preamps. These were all relatively small factors that should not have made a difference in most cases. However, all DAC1's manufactured after 5/03 should sound the same. After all, they have the same IC's, OpAmps, circuit design, components, etc.

Hope I got all your questions...

Thanks,
Elias

 

[little-endian]

Hi Elias,

thank you again for your interest and excellent support. Very unusual for a manufacturer's support staff ...

Ah, I think now I understood what you mean in regard to the 192 kHz capability - the mechanical layout and the used transmitters were change independently, right?
I'm glad to send you the date and serial number via PM. I will do this in about 9 hours when I come home.

I agree with you that the new USB version is able to display the problem which occured more accurately, but this is just about the more on information, not the latency, right? The old DAC1 might be able to display the errors somewhat 'faster'. I mean, some errors occur so shortly in time that the error is over long ago before the indicators of the new DAC1 could start to blink, at all. That's what I thought. You see, since I have the old version and probably now chance to get the new version in exchange without a huge loss of money, I'm convulsively searching for any advantages mine could have, haha.

Yeah, the benefits of higher and higher sample rates and bit deepths seems to become more and more of a theoretical nature. What is questionable is if the higher bandwidth does really change the sonic experience because it is far beyond of our ear's capabilities. But I won't follow this thoughts here because otherwise i fear we get too off-topic. Interesting that you confirm the pretty constant sonic performance over several 'generations' of the DAC1. So I suppose some people here (like it seems to be the case often when it cames to high-end) believe to hear thing that don't exist but what they want to hear. If nothing was changed, there is no other explanation but pure voodoo.

Now to the experiment. I like it very much doing such tests because one gains interesting information, often not written in such detail anywhere and the good thing is that it is provable (in opposite to most sonic descriptions). Perhaps this would be worth an own thread but since I already started with it, I'll take the risk to get a bit off-topic:

What you said about the different transports which will react differently should be examined. Thought strictly about that it is a real shame that this is the case! Why? Because everything is standardized. When it comes to S/PDIF, there are several flags to indicate the status. Whether or not the samples are valid, pcm or other data, etc. And what is? Almost every device handles this differently. There is resampling, the lack of error indication, data corruption and so on. Per se it is a fundamental requirement that a cd-rom drive or cd-player simply provides the data 1:1 which is stored on the medium (at the user's data level, the raw data will be different everytime, of course). What makes the digital technique so ingenious is wasted here. Many manufacturers seem to forget doing their homework. How could it otherwise be that some so-called 'high end' players aren't even able to use the deemphasis correctly? So, bitched enough about that for now.
I better go on with the facts: I've checked the behavior of an ASUS CD-S500/A again. It is one of the few drives, I suppose that deliver a continues S/PDIF signal. Other ones enable this output only when an audio-cd is actually being played and interrupt the signal on manual track changes. Somehow the driver declares the data as "non pcm" when errors occur instead of simply use the intended 'valid'-flag for this. I pretty sure about this because the kmixer driver which I use for my (nowadays crappy) SBLive! value displays "AC3" for a short moment in that case. This is when the "non pcm"-led of the DAC1 ligths up for some ms. It seems to occur only on E32 errors - flawless (pressed) cds play without "non pcm" - errors while scratchy ones (or rewritables sometimes) produce this strange status. Amazingly, the rewritables (which this drive seems to have a problem with) can be copy via 'digital audio extraction' without any C2 errors (which EAC is able to display). The resulting files are free of errors, copied at > 10x. It is very strange that the same cd can't be read properly at 1x in burst access. Another open question. It is interesting also that almost every drive i tested provides a different sample rate. I think this is just some kind of nominal indication because otherwise the signal would have to be resampled (I hardly believe that a simple CD-ROM has even the ability to do this - which is very beneficial here) or the pitch would be lower which I don't believe either.

Please refer to one of my postings in another forum. It is German, but you can follow the links for the screenshots here.

http://www.hifi-forum.de/index.php?a...54&thread=6074

When using a Plextor drive, no errors occur so far but besides that it is the kind of drive which enable the output not all of the time, it is suspected to be not bit-perfect. I can't test this yet because my ordered sound card with S/PDIF input and the VIA Envy24 chipset (said to process all data unchanged) didn't arrive so far. At one site the ASUS was tested to be bit-perfect (unfortunately the strange problem with rewriteble media) and that I can say about the sound quality - it is completely unnecessary to use any high quality transport as long as it is error free. Here a picture of the probably most puristic cd-player setup - just for a bit amusement. Forgive me the noisy quality - after purchasing the DAC1 there was no money left to afford a camera which is worth the name.

You're right, Elias. There are really a few questions here and it seems there are even more. Good to have you here ...

little-endian