Bel Canto Dac3. Any info? Better than Benchmark Dac?
Oct 9, 2006 at 1:42 PM Post #46 of 103
Quote:

Originally Posted by rumatt
The Bel Canto site lists a "Dac3 remote" http://www.belcantodesign.com/prod_remote_pre3dac3.html

Does anyone have more info on this? Does it come with the DAC3? It looks like you could essentially use the DAC3 as a DAC/Preamp.



It does and you can.

Humanflyz, to the extent that I can tell what is due to the dac vs. other components, the bass seems clear, quite extended and impactful (if that's a word).
 
Oct 9, 2006 at 6:49 PM Post #47 of 103
My experience with high-end DACs like the Benchmark and Lavry is that they really sound pretty similar if you actually compare them side-by-side. I am beginning to believe this applies to most high-end audio products, which is why reviews of them tend to not be comparisons, but long, glowing descriptions of how wonderful they sound.

The most different-sounding DAC I've ever heard was ayt999's Accuphase, which truly had a delicate, sweet sound. I didn't necessarily think it sounded better than the DAC1 (an older model, by the way) in a direct comparison, just different (each DAC in this comparison had subtle distinctions).

Anyway, I am going to guess that people who have simply heard the new Bel Canto DAC are going to say it sounds absolutely fantastic (like most high-end DACs). I think what we really need is a detailed, side-by-side comparison with the Benchmark (or Lavry), with full details disclosed about what source(s) were used before coming to any conclusion about this impressive-looking new DAC.

I should add that in the many equipment comparisons I've done, the biggest differences have always been between headphones/speakers. The electronics involved always play a second-fiddle to these key components.
 
Oct 9, 2006 at 10:18 PM Post #49 of 103
Quote:

Originally Posted by ezkcdude
I think proper volume matching is something that is crucial in these comparisons, and unfortunately, I think it is rarely done.


Agreed. In addition to proper volume matching, it needs to be a double blind comparison as well, or it's essentially useless. The amount of crap your brain will make up based on your expectations is amazing.
 
Oct 18, 2006 at 8:35 PM Post #50 of 103
Anymore thoughts from DAC 3 owners about how they compare to other units? I'd be particularly interested in the comparison between the DAC 3 and the Esoteric X-03.
 
Oct 26, 2006 at 9:44 AM Post #51 of 103
Just to resurrect this thread.
I had a listen to a DAC3 over the weekend, comparing it to my own DAC2.
Both were taking outputs from a DCS transport, the DAC3 via AES-EBU, the DAC2 via coax. Ouputs from the DAC3 were via balanced, the DAC2 via RCA phono. My own transport and amp can support both balanced and AES-EBU, and as I understand that these are meant to have an edge, seemed to make sense to use them.
The amp I used was my own Bel Canto Evo2i, into a pair of unfamiliar hybrid ribbon/dynamic driver speakers.

Once I'd got used to the balance of the system with the speakers in question, I then swapped between the two dacs. As the transport could output to both, it meant that I could set the volume to be the same for both thus allowing easy switching between the units.
I tried both 30 second clips to look for obvious differences and also listening to whole tracks, which IMO is better for spotting the more subtle differences, often related to how involving the system is.
Have to say that frankly I could tell much difference between the two. The DAC3 seemed to have just slightly better dynamics, and the "depth" of where you visualised the musicians in a soundstage also changed, though whether that change is for the better or worse is purely person dependant.

Either way, certainly not enough difference to justify an "upgrade", though if I were in the market for a new DAC and didn't already have a DAC2, the DAC3 would be a VERY good place to start.
 
Oct 26, 2006 at 2:14 PM Post #52 of 103
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_Sukebe
Either way, certainly not enough difference to justify an "upgrade", though if I were in the market for a new DAC and didn't already have a DAC2, the DAC3 would be a VERY good place to start.


At $2500, it very well ought to be a VERY good place to start. The question is: is it a much better DAC than a Benchmark DAC1 or others priced at $1000? If so, why?

I understand that not all computer users have optical outs, but if they do, aren't these better than USB? Was adding USB the main improvement in the DAC3 over the DAC2. If so, does it matter to people who have optical or coax connections?

Same question for the ability to act as a pre-amp? Am I mistaken in assuming that this has no effect on the actual digital conversion or sound quality?
 
Oct 26, 2006 at 3:47 PM Post #53 of 103
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruppin
At $2500, it very well ought to be a VERY good place to start. The question is: is it a much better DAC than a Benchmark DAC1 or others priced at $1000? If so, why?

I understand that not all computer users have optical outs, but if they do, aren't these better than USB? Was adding USB the main improvement in the DAC3 over the DAC2. If so, does it matter to people who have optical or coax connections?

Same question for the ability to act as a pre-amp? Am I mistaken in assuming that this has no effect on the actual digital conversion or sound quality?



Having never heard a DAC1, I'm not going to try to comment on that, and without a direct comparison, it's pointless to speculate.

Optical outputs seem to have been bottom of the pile from a sound quality basis. I've never heard one that's got close to even a coax digital output.

As I understand the differences between the DAC3 and DAC2, they are:
- New styling, which is a matter of personal preference
- Built in volume control, allowing it to be used as a pre-amp in an all digital system
- Much improved connectivity options. The DAC2 has optical and coax inputs, with RCA outputs. The DAC3 adds AES-EBU and USB inputs, along with balanced XLR outputs. In theory the improved connectivity should improve sound quality.
- I'm told by a UK importer that the DAC3 is full of very high quality components such as it's caps, clocks etc. As I know bugger all about the innards of kit, not for me to comment, but he sounded impressed.

The ability to act as a pre-amp doesn't affect sound quality. What it does mean is that you don't have to buy a seperate pre-amp. I'm not going to comment on how good the DAC3's pre amp might be, but in theory, could be on par with a several thousand dollar standalone pre-amp, which would make it's total cost a whole lot more appealing.
 
Oct 26, 2006 at 4:05 PM Post #54 of 103
Thank you for the response.

Can anyone else comment on optical outputs? I was under the impression that USB was the bottom of the pile. Optical should be bit by bit perfect. I am not, however, an expert or an engineer.


Thanks.
 
Oct 29, 2006 at 3:34 PM Post #55 of 103
I have owned both the Lavry DA10 and Bel Canto DAC3 for almost a couple months now. I'm still not ready to make a wholesale review simply because I can't decide conclusively which one I like better! Since both have volume controls -- Lavry DA10 is analog, the DAC3's is digital -- I have been able to run it directly into my amp (NuForce Ref 8.02, driving Magnepan MG1.6s). The direct method appears to show up the differences between the DACs better than running them through my Placette RVC passive preamp. You guys can decide whether that's because the extra cable + preamp colors the sound uniformly or because the Placette makes it easier to A/B the DACs and that I'm magnifying the differences when I actually have to switch the DACs manually.

In the context of very small differences, my initial impression of the DA10 and DAC3 remains the same after all this time: they are diametric opposites. The Lavry DA10 is a midrange performer, the proponent of the analog sound; the Bel Canto DAC3 is all about realism. I listen to the Lavry when I want the best chance of relaxing to the music no matter how poorly-recorded it may be -- although the DA10 will eventually show up the badly-recorded stuff too -- but it is the Bel Canto that sends shivers up my spine when something sounds particularly realistic. Diana Krall is superior on the DA10; acoustic instrumental jazz is better on the DAC3. This does not mean that either DAC is incapable of moments where it sounds like the other -- indeed, they sound more alike than any other pair of components I've had through my system -- but there is a character to the Lavry that lends musicality to recordings, while the Bel Canto consistently sounds more realistic.

There are caveats to both approaches. The Lavry DA10 is almost as extended in the treble as the DAC3, but the DAC3 seems to push it up a bit more. It's a difficult thing to describe for me because I don't have the vocabulary, but sometimes it feels like the DAC3 is extending the treble so far that it hits a frequency brick wall when my own hearing cops out, so it doesn't sound as smoothly extended as the DA10. In other words, whereas the treble on the DA10 fades unnoticeably into light, I can hear where the DAC3 stops. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that when I first listened to the DAC3 I thought my Magnepans had suddenly grown metal tweeters. That's a harsh (pun not intended) description considering how amazingly smooth the DAC3's treble is, but that gives you a flavor of how different the DAC3's treble sounded coming from the DA10. On the other hand, while the DA10 isn't as super-extended as the DAC3 it compensates by focusing attention on the octaves just below high treble, which can sometimes come across as a brightness. This is exacerbated by my Maggies' tendency to a bit of misbehavior in that region as well. The final tally is that the Bel Canto actually sounds more coherent through the treble region, even with its more active high treble response. Confusing, I know: sorry about that.

Again I have to remind everyone that the differences between DACs nowadays -- at least at these price points, I have little experience with $3000+ DACs -- is very small and requires concentrated listening to tell apart, or casual listening over a long time. It would be a grave mistake to immediately dismiss one or the other DAC based on one or another comment. For example while the Bel Canto is brighter than the Lavry it is also clearly the more realistic, and although the Lavry may be more analog-sounding to me it does not imply that this is the sound you are looking for. When I plug the DACs directly into my power amp I seem to hear obvious differences, but when I tape over the Placette's input indicator and A/B the DACs through the preamp I find myself flummoxed by their similarity.

From memory, both DACs are again different from the Benchmark DAC1, which I gave up to get the Lavry DA10, so while for me they are both better than the DAC1 I myself cannot say that I couldn't live with any of the three forever. For me the hardest part to get right is the upper midrange-through-treble range, and each has its own problems in that area. You definitely don't get that slight Benchmark DAC1 coldness in either of the other two DACs, but the DAC3 may be too extended for some and the DA10 a little too uninvolving for others.

My apologies: I said I wasn't going write a review and end up putting myself in the position where people are probably going to bombard me with questions. So let me try warding off some of them:

- I haven't done much soundstaging/imaging observations, although I think the DAC3 is slightly wider and more laid-back, the Lavry DA10 is narrower with greater forward presence due to its midrange prowess, and the Benchmark DAC1 is flatter than both. Magnepans have a "background music" presentation that is better served by the Lavry DA10 but I suspect that in general the Bel Canto DAC3's soundstaging would be considered the best of all the DACs here.

- Bass is not terribly existent with my current setup so I can't really comment on that (although I think the DAC3 compensates its treble extension with a wee bit more welly on the bottom, vs the DA10; I can't remember what the DAC1 sounded like on the bottom).

- The differences between the DACs are far greater than anything I could hear between the various types of inputs (USB, optical, coax, etc.). In fact, I haven't heard any differences at all so far.

- I didn't try enough transports to determine their impact on the DACs and their jitter-reduction schemes. FYI, the Lavry DA10's Crystal Lock mode reclocks the data and the Bel Canto DAC3 uses the same upsampling scheme as the Benchmark DAC1 to push jitter beyond the audible range. I am convinced now that the DAC1's coldness is not due to this method of reducing jitter.

- I don't have any experience with Zhaolu or Stello DACs. I have in the past spent time with an Electrocompaniet ECD1, but that one was overtly musical and I was trying for neutrality at the time.

- Both the Bel Canto and Lavry are equally competent through the midrange, although as mentioned the Lavry is somewhat more forward there and the Bel Canto a bit more distant by comparison. Oh, that business about lower-midrange levity in the DAC3: it exists, but it serves to give richness to, say, Krall's voice rather than torpedo the DAC3's tonal response. It's part of why I feel the Lavry is more analog-sounding.

- Oh, the most obvious question of all: I haven't updated my headphone system as rapidly as my speaker system, so I can't really say anything on that front. Sorry guys and girls!

Ruppin: I think you will be pleased by the USB input. Know that it is only up to 16-bit/48kHz; however, ASIO works just fine (e.g. foobar2000 v0.8.3 with the .exe version of the ASIO component).

Hope that helps. I may change my opinion over time, but when they settle down I will write a better review. I will be receiving a pair of NuForce's S9 speakers shortly and expect that they will be more neutral than my Magnepan MG1.6s. That may be a better test of the DACs' performance.

Cheers!

Edit: I forgot to mention: all that I said about the Bel Canto DAC3's extended treble applies in even greater part to the previous DAC2. I never found the DAC2 to be as smooth and analog-sounding as many reviewers thought. In fact, I was quite taken aback at how bright it was. You want analog, try an Electrocompaniet ECD1 or, to a lesser extent, the Lavry DACs. I hear that Monarchy Audio M24 is a real player on that front as well.
 
Oct 29, 2006 at 4:55 PM Post #56 of 103
Hello

We did a small dac shot out at the ny audio rave yesterday and i have to tell you that the da-100 and citypulse dac both sounded better not just to me but just about eveyone there.there was about 15 to 20 people there and we listen to the bel canto dac3 for about 5 songs and took it out.its not that it is bad or anything its just not as good as the others.

After listening i would have to say that saying that the dac3 is better then the mk2 stello is just not the case a least to this group of 20 people.i have the mk2 and i know for a fact it is not as good da-100 and there is no way that dac 3 is a good as the mk2.

And for the amount of money you spend on the dac3 i think you don't get any where near the value you do on a citypule or a da-100.

Also with a mod here or there on a da-100 or a citypulse there would be no test at all.And you would still save a $1000.00 bucks.

The dac3 is built well and looks nice and has a lot of hook ups but the sound is just not there as would think it would be for the price.

BTW there was a very modded Zhaolu and it was taken out right away as it was just making everything sound like mud.it could have been just not working with what we had.that was the first time i heard one but i found it hard to think about all the hype about it.could have been just that one.
 
Oct 29, 2006 at 5:04 PM Post #57 of 103
Quote:

Originally Posted by krusty09
Hello

We did a small dac shot out at the ny audio rave yesterday and i have to tell you that the da-100 and citypulse dac both sounded better not just to me but just about eveyone there.there was about 15 to 20 people there and we listen to the bel canto dac3 for about 5 songs and took it out.its not that it is bad or anything its just not as good as the others.

After listening i would have to say that saying that the dac3 is better then the mk2 stello is just not the case a least to this group of 20 people.i have the mk2 and i know for a fact it is not as good da-100 and there is no way that dac 3 is a good as the mk2.

And for the amount of money you spend on the dac3 i think you don't get any where near the value you do on a citypule or a da-100.

Also with a mod here or there on a da-100 or a citypulse there would be no test at all.And you would still save a $1000.00 bucks.

The dac3 is built well and looks nice and has a lot off hook ups but the sound is just not there as would think it would be for the price.




The DA100 is better than the DA220? Umkay.
confused.gif


-Ed
 
Oct 29, 2006 at 5:07 PM Post #58 of 103
i don't think i said that and if i did thats not what i meant.220 is still better then a 100,i was saying that there is no way that dac3 is better mk2 because the da-100 was better then a dac3 and the mk2 is better then a da-100.

i hope this helps to clear it up.
 
Oct 29, 2006 at 5:15 PM Post #59 of 103
Quote:

Originally Posted by krusty09

After listening i would have to say that saying that the dac3 is better then the mk2 stello is just not the case a least to this group of 20 people.i have the mk2 and i know for a fact it is not as good da-100 and there is no way that dac 3 is a good as the mk2.



Ah. OK. This is the part that confused me.

Makes more sense now.
wink.gif


-Ed
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top