[audioengr]

Riboge has hit the nail on the head. If the system is not resolving enough or quiet enough, then the benefits of low jitter will probably not be noticable, or at least not first-order. This is the case with most audio discussions. People are comparing apples and oranges. Audiophiles systems are at all different levels of perfection.

Just because you cannot hear the benefits of low-jitter in your system does not mean that it will not make a huge difference in another system. Once the system is totally tweaked and ultra-low noise and low sibilance, then jitter becomes the ONLY issue IMO.

Most audiophiles that think they are close to nirvana with their systems are not even remotely close in reality. This I have found from experience.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

 

[Logistics]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maniac /img/forum/go_quote.gif Actually, none of the stuff you said have much influence in terms of jitter. Not to mention jitter can only be dealt with when it is still original digital data, once it's gone through D/A or some other calculations, it is messed. And no one I know ever tried to put a electrolytic cap in digital signal path, they use isolator chips, film/ceramic/mica caps or pulse transformers. Like redwire said above, just changing clocks into different packaging can have a measurable and visible effect. Careful signal path planning and parts selection is just one of the few things required to deal with jitter properly.

Would you agree that IC's can oscillate due to instabilities within the circuit, some of which can be caused by poor component quality, dirty power, many contributing factors, which in the end will intensify any jitter present?

I meant the analog stages, not digital. I'm simply stating that people should stop worrying about how jitter causes their equipment to sound, when there are other aspects of said equipment which would increase the sound quality of their system FAR more than decreasing jitter. And I believe this to be the majority.

 

[evilking]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif ...you realize that the fractions of time we are talking about are so minute, hearing jitter would be like seeing a molecule. See ya Steve

x2

You Speak The Truth!

Jitter is the new default for fabricating differences in audio equipment. It's perfect for the "purists" or "experienced" because it can always be "reduced", no matter the circumstances.

Every single component can contribute to the "problem" and therefore every single component can upgraded to infinity.


EK

 

[Maniac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logistics /img/forum/go_quote.gif Would you agree that IC's can oscillate due to instabilities within the circuit, some of which can be caused by poor component quality, dirty power, many contributing factors, which in the end will intensify any jitter present? I meant the analog stages, not digital. I'm simply stating that people should stop worrying about how jitter causes their equipment to sound, when there are other aspects of said equipment which would increase the sound quality of their system FAR more than decreasing jitter. And I believe this to be the majority.

Well, isn't the topic of this thread on jitter? Which is the reason I focused the response on jitter.

I have personally found jitter difference from transport can be quite audible if you have a pair of good speakers and a fair quality amp when using a good DAC like Perpetual P3A. At the time I was comparing a lightly modified Sony XE-600 (el-cheapo SACD player) and transport kit that my friend built. The difference between the two players are like night and day, it takes only casual listening to show the difference between the two. It was only later that we found out the digital output stage of his DIY transport were basically pretty messed up. No wonder it got smacked so bad by a cheap player.


For upgrading your own audio system, the first thing I suppose is making sure the weakest link is found. If the weakest link in the chain isn't your DAC or source, then upgrading them might not do much at all.

 

[Logistics]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maniac /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, isn't the topic of this thread on jitter? Which is the reason I focused the response on jitter. I have personally found jitter difference from transport can be quite audible if you have a pair of good speakers and a fair quality amp when using a good DAC like Perpetual P3A. At the time I was comparing a lightly modified Sony XE-600 (el-cheapo SACD player) and transport kit that my friend built. The difference between the two players are like night and day, it takes only casual listening to show the difference between the two. It was only later that we found out the digital output stage of his DIY transport were basically pretty messed up. No wonder it got smacked so bad by a cheap player. For upgrading your own audio system, the first thing I suppose is making sure the weakest link is found. If the weakest link in the chain isn't your DAC or source, then upgrading them might not do much at all.

Yeah, the topic's on jitter; specifically in a PC.

And if jitter can be intensified or even caused by poor component quality, bad circuit design(other than the portion which controls the frequency of the clock and such), dirty power, etc., then I figure it's reasonable to improve these areas, since no matter how nice your crystals and clocks, whatever, are, it can suffer due to the other problems.

 

[redwires]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logistics /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yeah, the topic's on jitter; specifically in a PC. And if jitter can be intensified or even caused by poor component quality, bad circuit design(other than the portion which controls the frequency of the clock and such), dirty power, etc., then I figure it's reasonable to improve these areas, since no matter how nice your crystals and clocks, whatever, are, it can suffer due to the other problems.

Most of my experience comes from the routing higher speed interfaces other than audio, but jitter is the same. There are many causes for jitter. Ambient noise, signal crosstalk, signal reflection, inadequate drive strength for the load present, the list goes on. This also includes the issues you mentioned such as dirty power.

If the issue from the source computer cannot be addressed, then one can build a more jitter tolerant circuit to handle the bad signal and there may be some improvement there. Something such as a FIFO with independent read/write clocks could be used to reclock the incoming jittery data.

I think the issue is whether YOU can hear the difference or not. There are some people that can't hear the difference between $50 and $200 headphones. Just because you cannot hear the difference does not mean you should rule out the existence of the difference entirely.

 

[macbrush]

IMHO, jittering is a problem, it is there, I have no doubt about it. But in normal circumstances, its so subtle that you have to know what to listen for, otherwise you probably will never realise its there, for an average person like me anyway. Unless you have got a very bad system with a huge jittering issue, jittering won't be an audible issue.

Its so much like learning to listen to attack, and decay transients, once you know exactly what to look for, even most subtle differences seems "amplified" in the listening experience; so opinions from ppl know what to look for, may seem like being exaggerated a bit in others eyes.

Some manufacturers, however, make the most of it, and invent anti-jittering designs, chips, theories... etc to charge you $1000 extra, but neglect to mention that 99% of the sound improvement from the new models are actually from other uprated components here and there which probably cost them $5 total.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Maniac]

You don't have to know what to listen for to hear the difference, but your system needs to be at least able to let the difference come through. Ever wonder why Digital Lens is so difficult to find on second hand market? It's only something in between your player and DAC, and if it does not make enough difference, people would be seeing them a lot more often on the second hand market now.

Heck, I want one of that myself, but the second hand price of that is still a bit high for me to swallow, not to mention it is snapped up rather quickly even at that price.

No, using Digital lens won't up sample, or do much to your signal other than buffering it and reclock it with some rather clever setup.

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by audioengr /img/forum/go_quote.gif Riboge has hit the nail on the head. If the system is not resolving enough or quiet enough, then the benefits of low jitter will probably not be noticable, or at least not first-order. This is the case with most audio discussions.

That's because most audio discussions are about things that just don't matter. Frequency response imbalances, room acoustics, quality of speakers... these are all things that really *do* matter, and many audiophiles haven't even begun to address them.

If you're worrying about jitter, you're focused on the wrong end of the horse.

See ya
Steve

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maniac /img/forum/go_quote.gif At the time I was comparing a lightly modified Sony XE-600 (el-cheapo SACD player) and transport kit that my friend built. The difference between the two players are like night and day, it takes only casual listening to show the difference between the two. It was only later that we found out the digital output stage of his DIY transport were basically pretty messed up. No wonder it got smacked so bad by a cheap player.

I think that's the sort of thing that causes most "night and day" differences between CD players. If there's a significant difference, one of them is operating out of spec. It doesn't cost a lot of money to buy a really good sounding CD player. There are lots of them out there at all price points.

See ya
Steve

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maniac /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ever wonder why Digital Lens is so difficult to find on second hand market? It's only something in between your player and DAC, and if it does not make enough difference, people would be seeing them a lot more often on the second hand market now.

The reason could also be that not many people buy them in the first place.

See ya
Steve

 

[audioengr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logistics /img/forum/go_quote.gif Would you agree that IC's can oscillate due to instabilities within the circuit, some of which can be caused by poor component quality, dirty power, many contributing factors, which in the end will intensify any jitter present?

If the design is poor enough to oscillate, then you dont want this product. Has nothing to do with jitter. Usually it's the op-amps, the analog portion that oscillates, not the digital.

Poor power delivery and power supply design can certainly contribute to jitter.

Quote:

I meant the analog stages, not digital. I'm simply stating that people should stop worrying about how jitter causes their equipment to sound, when there are other aspects of said equipment which would increase the sound quality of their system FAR more than decreasing jitter. And I believe this to be the majority.

Both the digital and the anlog sections need attention in most gear. This is why I mod both.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

 

[audioengr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's because most audio discussions are about things that just don't matter. Frequency response imbalances, room acoustics, quality of speakers... these are all things that really *do* matter, and many audiophiles haven't even begun to address them. If you're worrying about jitter, you're focused on the wrong end of the horse. See ya Steve

If you are not worried about jitter, then that tells me that your system has a long way to come yet. I've been upgrading mine for over 30 years.

Steve N.

 

[monolith]

Quote:

Originally Posted by audioengr /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you are not worried about jitter, then that tells me that your system has a long way to come yet. I've been upgrading mine for over 30 years. Steve N.

It might also mean that he's spending his time and money upgrading things that make an audible difference.

 

[infinitesymphony]

Quote:

Originally Posted by monolith /img/forum/go_quote.gif It might also mean that he's spending his time and money upgrading things that make an audible difference.

Except we can't know that, because he never talks about what he has or is upgrading. He only discusses what he isn't interested in upgrading.

It seems to me that someone who defends his opinions as vehemently as bigshot wouldn't mind letting others know what he's using, so that they could form their own opinions.