[xRaptorxPunisher]

Haven’t heard the Verum 1, need to listen to it sometimes. Sometimes you find something truly special that doesn’t cost an arm and a leg. I’m personally still trying to find something better than or at least on par with my modded DT 480. Especially for anything near it’s price. The ancient thing outclasses my Nighthawk, HD 6XX, T1.2, etc. I can’t really say what they do better sonically than the DT 480; vocals, timbre, detail, depth, imaging, transparency, lack of fatigue, lack of distortion, speed, dynamics, emotional connection to the music, etc. it’s better in all those ways. The other headphones simply sound incomplete in comparison.

Older stuff does tend to sound better to me

I've yet to hear a headphone match the timbre on the HD650 before the silent revision which added the 5K shout.

Throw Porta Pro, R10, Verum 1 and a good grade A LCD-2 from 2010-2011 on that list of special tone and timbre. I've not heard the DT48 although I hate the messed up metalic timbre their modern range has.

 

[funkle II]

I've heard some people say they've heard distortion but the distortion levels are fairly low. What a lot of people seem to mistake for distortion is the internal cup reverb. They do sound a bit grainy but the actual distortion is low.

Wouldn't cup reverb be more prevalent on a closed headphone? The reason I ask is that it I hear it more on the Hawk than the Owl.

 

[kman1211]

Older stuff does tend to sound better to me

I've yet to hear a headphone match the timbre on the HD650 before the silent revision which added the 5K shout.

Throw Porta Pro, R10, Verum 1 and a good grade A LCD-2 from 2010-2011 on that list of special tone and timbre. I've not heard the DT48 although I hate the messed up metalic timbre their modern range has.

Good old headphones often do sound better in many ways, especially in terms of timbre.

I did mod them as they are incomplete headphones stock, it is 40 years old and they didn't do proper design of the housing acoustics, but a bit of time listening to them told me their drivers are special and fundamentally different. Honestly don't find my T1.2 Black to sound metallic, though many Beyers do have a metallic timbre, the DT 1990 and Amiron Home have a little bit of a metallic tone, not as much as previous Beyers though, but some reason the T1.2 Black(2018-2019) fixes that for me, at least on my system. The reason why I'm not the biggest fan of the DT 880, DT 990, etc. is a bit of the metallicness even though I'd argue that the DT 880 600 ohm to have a more resolving driver than the HD 650, tonally the HD 600/650 are just better than the DT 880 imho.

The DT 480 timbre is not metallic(nor does the Beyer-peak exist on it), the percussion dynamics can get intense at louder volumes and it can reproduce metal instruments in a way I haven't heard before in a headphone but never found it metallic, despite it's metal drivers. It sounds like it's just reproducing what is fed into the mic and the driver itself just gets out of the way and is completely effortless about it. The Focal Elear sounded metallic in the treble, the Cleer Next was way too metallic(this is coming from most Beyers). You know that is my problem with my HD 6XX, there is a bit too much presence around the 5k region, it makes it sound surprisingly bright, I miss the darker tone of the older HD 650's, hopefully more wear on the pads will help some on that, but they aren't what I remember them being in the past.

 

[xRaptorxPunisher]

Wouldn't cup reverb be more prevalent on a closed headphone? The reason I ask is that it I hear it more on the Hawk than the Owl.

The Nighthawk is pretty much a closed headphone. The grill only acts as controlled air flow.

The Nightowl does lower the midbass so it doesn't sound as stuffy inside the cups so it isn't as obvious.

 

[xRaptorxPunisher]

Good old headphones often do sound better in many ways, especially in terms of timbre.

I did mod them as they are incomplete headphones stock, it is 40 years old and they didn't do proper design of the housing acoustics, but a bit of time listening to them told me their drivers are special and fundamentally different. Honestly don't find my T1.2 Black to sound metallic, though many Beyers do have a metallic timbre, the DT 1990 and Amiron Home have a little bit of a metallic tone, not as much as previous Beyers though, but some reason the T1.2 Black(2018-2019) fixes that for me, at least on my system. The reason why I'm not the biggest fan of the DT 880, DT 990, etc. is a bit of the metallicness even though I'd argue that the DT 880 600 ohm to have a more resolving driver than the HD 650, tonally the HD 600/650 are just better than the DT 880 imho.

The DT 480 timbre is not metallic(nor does the Beyer-peak exist on it), the percussion dynamics can get intense at louder volumes and it can reproduce metal instruments in a way I haven't heard before in a headphone but never found it metallic, despite it's metal drivers. It sounds like it's just reproducing what is fed into the mic and the driver itself just gets out of the way and is completely effortless about it. The Focal Elear sounded metallic in the treble, the Cleer Next was way too metallic(this is coming from most Beyers). You know that is my problem with my HD 6XX, there is a bit too much presence around the 5k region, it makes it sound surprisingly bright, I miss the darker tone of the older HD 650's, hopefully more wear on the pads will help some on that, but they aren't what I remember them being in the past.

I'm very picky when it comes to headphones, I probably like about 10 headphones and hate the rest haha. Yeah older phones do have their imperfections mainly with housing but like you said can be special when tinkered with like you found with your DT48. Thing with drivers they really havent changed much yet prices keep going up but only a handful are worth building apon IMO. Yup im with you on that , the HD600 is the biggest offender with peaks and the current HD6xx/650 has this beautiful tone ruined by the energy at 5K. The older 650 are beautiful sounding. Verum sound up your ally, they sound like an old school planar, the drivers are unique, none of this off the shelf, reused crap.

 

[kman1211]

I'm very picky when it comes to headphones, I probably like about 10 headphones and hate the rest haha. Yeah older phones do have their imperfections mainly with housing but like you said can be special when tinkered with like you found with your DT48. Thing with drivers they really havent changed much yet prices keep going up but only a handful are worth building apon IMO. Yup im with you on that , the HD600 is the biggest offender with peaks and the current HD6xx/650 has this beautiful tone ruined by the energy at 5K. The older 650 are beautiful sounding. Verum sound up your ally, they sound like an old school planar, the drivers are unique, none of this off the shelf, reused crap.

I may not be that quite picky but honestly I only bother owning and keeping a few. They either have to be exceptional headphones and/or be different and unique. Honestly the old drivers are just as good and sometimes better than modern stuff, considering the original dynamic driver still puts many modern drivers to shame is a testament to that electrodynamic driver technology has been mature for decades. It's really the housing and overall tuning that changed on most headphones. One interesting trend I've noticed is Beyers are getting darker and warmer overall with their newer releases and I oddly find more of Sennheisers mid-tier stuff to be getting brighter in lower treble/upper midrange regions, whether with tweaks or new releases. In this weird position where my T1.2 (newer pairs are surprisingly dark and warm to my ears) is darker than my HD 6XX and the T1.2 is filling in the HD 650's role of a darker and beautiful sounding headphone that goes well with everything and the HD 6XX is more akin to the HD 600 I had in the past.

The Nighthawk has always been it's own thing, I use it frequently but it's not my main headphones and I mainly enjoy it most when I listen to it at length. I've had a problem with a lot of planars with them not sounding quite right to my ears. Generally found good dynamics and electrostatics to be more my cup of tea, but a good planar is something I do want to find. Next headphone on my list is an electrostatic though.

 

[Mink]

The more I use them, the Hawks and Owls the less microphonic the cables get, so I'll stick with them. I have found that maybe 1 out of 20 songs/albums/Youtube videos sound a bit too acoustically dry, in the sense that there's a lack of air and treble sparkle. So I tried some EQ-ing and I must say it works wonderful, with very little correction.
Even with the bare bones equalizer that Opera has as an plug-in. Just a subtle curve up does the trick.

.

 

[trellus]

I think those who enjoy the NH enjoy the marketing more than the product. If Skylar didn't post all that stuff about accuracy people would say it's a mess. I think the NH is an absolute mess, mids drowned out, too much mid bass, treble is so uneven, huge peaks, dips trying to be smoothed over by the mid bass and cup reverb. That said it didnt stop me listening to it and owning it for 6 months. It was easy to drive, the driver itself was good, fostex drivers are great. They were so comfortable, I loved the look, build of it.


The whole speaker presentation doesn't work in headphones, especially one that was basically closed, with a little bit of controlled air flow. The only headphone I've heard that sound closer to speakers is the Verum One, which funny enough was made by a speaker builder. If Audioquest gave Sylar soke more time, I reckon he couldve came up with something better.

Technically nighthawk was a failed project but I don't really see it like that, it was interesting, the design had innovation, it looked good, smelled good(IMO) it just didn't have the right housing for the driver.

I dunno, the marketing doesn’t mean anything to me, I bought mine used because I thought they looked gorgeous, and had a reputation for being unique, and I find them a very easy listen with good detail even just out of my iPhone - and the comfort is top notch on my ears and head.

 

[trellus]

Not really. If you look at the early impressions most people didn't like them, their responses were the same as they are now, too muddy, too narrow.

After a while, the website started becoming the topic, you had one guy who worked for audioquest who kept sharing claims of accuracy then people started to buy into it because it was a different approach.

Yes some people like them but the majority don't. I did find in the real world, the only people who liked them never tried a high end rig or heard a good FR while MANY experienced ears right away, didn't like them because of their issues, makes sense they're more made doe the consumer market and don't compete with hifi gear IMO. That said some liked aspects of them, it's a mixed bag.


So no im not saying nobody likes them, I'm saying what I've seen personally.

Man, I just don’t hear muddy at all, or “dark” or a big mid bass hump, they really don’t sound bassy to me and I’m always flummoxed by claims that they have bloated bass. Maybe it’s the shape of my ears or something.

I don’t like them as much as my HD 600 or Focal Elex, but my ears are used to context switching to different sound signatures and FR curves or whatever, and so long as there is something my brain can latch on to and enjoy and there’s enough of whatever that set of things are for that headphone, I dig it.

 

[kman1211]

Man, I just don’t hear muddy at all, or “dark” or a big mid bass hump, they really don’t sound bassy to me and I’m always flummoxed by claims that they have bloated bass. Maybe it’s the shape of my ears or something.

I don’t like them as much as my HD 600 or Focal Elex, but my ears are used to context switching to different sound signatures and FR curves or whatever, and so long as there is something my brain can latch on to and enjoy and there’s enough of whatever that set of things are for that headphone, I dig it.

Honestly I don't find them as bassy as many say either nor do I find their bass overwhelming or to mask detail. I've always felt there is something Beyerish about the Nighthawks sound and that's likely why I liked them from the get go being someone who prefers Beyers inherent sound/driver characteristics to the majority of dynamic headphones, maybe it's partly due to how they image, which tend to be on the great side with a larger sound image and maybe also something to do with the decay.

 

[funkle II]

I've heard some people say they've heard distortion but the distortion levels are fairly low. What a lot of people seem to mistake for distortion is the internal cup reverb. They do sound a bit grainy but the actual distortion is low.

I just got my THX AAA 789 amp, and using this instead of the Burson, a lot of the muddled mids have gone away. I'm still hearing a bit of the mid distortion with that track, but not as much.

Honestly I don't find them as bassy as many say either nor do I find their bass overwhelming or to mask detail. I've always felt there is something Beyerish about the Nighthawks sound and that's likely why I liked them from the get go being someone who prefers Beyers inherent sound/driver characteristics to the majority of dynamic headphones, maybe it's partly due to how they image, which tend to be on the great side with a larger sound image and maybe also something to do with the decay.

The NH is hard to describe, and I think people are settling on words like "dark" or "bassy" for lack of better words. I think they do fall on the bassy/mid-heavy side, but I don't think those words effectively capture the character of the Nhs. I'd use lush, vivid or resonant to describe them. There is a certain non-sibilant presence, or clarity that is unusual. Bass has punch, but it's more of a soft mid-bass punch. They are a bit unnatural, or maybe "supernatural" rather than accurate. Definitely addictive. Anyone tried them with tubes?

 

[xRaptorxPunisher]

The Nighthawk does have some beyer like peaks and uneveness to the sound. Some can hear this obviously but with some it does take time. The mid bass and cup reverb makes them sound stuffy before adapting so this can hide it well. Over time I got so used to the sound the Nighthawks ended up sounding harsh to me.

I wouldn't describe the NH as lush myself because it's mids are quite lean, grainy lacking overal body but I can see the cups and bass hump giving off that impression for some also. The drivers of the Nighthawk are very capable though.

Hawks wouldn't work with tubes unless theyre transformer coupled or hybrids. I found that even transformer coupled WA6SE made them too much too much bloom, stuffy sounding. Solid state works better for these drivers IMO.

 

[funkle II]

The Nighthawk does have some beyer like peaks and uneveness to the sound. Some can hear this obviously but with some it does take time. The mid bass and cup reverb makes them sound stuffy before adapting so this can hide it well. Over time I got so used to the sound the Nighthawks ended up sounding harsh to me.

I wouldn't describe the NH as lush myself because it's mids are quite lean, grainy lacking overal body but I can see the cups and bass hump giving off that impression for some also. The drivers of the Nighthawk are very capable though.

Hawks wouldn't work with tubes unless theyre transformer coupled or hybrids. I found that even transformer coupled WA6SE made them too much too much bloom, stuffy sounding. Solid state works better for these drivers IMO.

I wouldn't describe the NH as lush myself because it's mids are quite lean, grainy lacking overal body

What are you using for amplification?

 

[kman1211]

I just got my THX AAA 789 amp, and using this instead of the Burson, a lot of the muddled mids have gone away. I'm still hearing a bit of the mid distortion with that track, but not as much.



The NH is hard to describe, and I think people are settling on words like "dark" or "bassy" for lack of better words. I think they do fall on the bassy/mid-heavy side, but I don't think those words effectively capture the character of the Nhs. I'd use lush, vivid or resonant to describe them. There is a certain non-sibilant presence, or clarity that is unusual. Bass has punch, but it's more of a soft mid-bass punch. They are a bit unnatural, or maybe "supernatural" rather than accurate. Definitely addictive. Anyone tried them with tubes?

They are a little difficult to describe, but I do find they do have some roughness in the treble and mids and in terms of clarity they don't compare with the DT 480, which can only be described as a clarity monster and is the best headphone I've ever owned for classical music. I find I hear the weaknesses of the Hawk on a lot of classical music, which I often find it struggles with it, I think the cup reverb hurts them on classical, I generally prefer the Hawks with electronic music and a variety of other genres.

The Nighthawk does have some beyer like peaks and uneveness to the sound. Some can hear this obviously but with some it does take time. The mid bass and cup reverb makes them sound stuffy before adapting so this can hide it well. Over time I got so used to the sound the Nighthawks ended up sounding harsh to me.

I wouldn't describe the NH as lush myself because it's mids are quite lean, grainy lacking overal body but I can see the cups and bass hump giving off that impression for some also. The drivers of the Nighthawk are very capable though.

Hawks wouldn't work with tubes unless theyre transformer coupled or hybrids. I found that even transformer coupled WA6SE made them too much too much bloom, stuffy sounding. Solid state works better for these drivers IMO.

It's not really the uneveness I'm referring to when I say they are a bit Beyerish as I personally find the Hawks more uneven sounding than Beyers. I can adjust to it, but I notice it when swapping from Beyers or Senns. I do find the Hawks do seem to stop scaling before my Beyers and Senns, I find on high-end gear the DT 480, T1.2, Amiron Home, and HD 6XX all sound better to me with the T1.2 and DT 480 sounding the best to me with top tier gear. Oddly I find the Hawks to sound very nice on my Sony UDA-1 which is a higher output impedance SS amp as it makes the sound lusher and fuller bodied without hurting it's clarity, I do not like the Hawks on the Asgard 3 at all, I sometimes found putting more power into the Hawks isn't always beneficial.

On a side note I have a Kaldas Research RR 1 Conquest on the way, very curious how they are going to sound compared to my dynamics.

 

[xRaptorxPunisher]

They are a little difficult to describe, but I do find they do have some roughness in the treble and mids and in terms of clarity they don't compare with the DT 480, which can only be described as a clarity monster and is the best headphone I've ever owned for classical music. I find I hear the weaknesses of the Hawk on a lot of classical music, which I often find it struggles with it, I think the cup reverb hurts them on classical, I generally prefer the Hawks with electronic music and a variety of other genres.



It's not really the uneveness I'm referring to when I say they are a bit Beyerish as I personally find the Hawks more uneven sounding than Beyers. I can adjust to it, but I notice it when swapping from Beyers or Senns. I do find the Hawks do seem to stop scaling before my Beyers and Senns, I find on high-end gear the DT 480, T1.2, Amiron Home, and HD 6XX all sound better to me with the T1.2 and DT 480 sounding the best to me with top tier gear. Oddly I find the Hawks to sound very nice on my Sony UDA-1 which is a higher output impedance SS amp as it makes the sound lusher and fuller bodied without hurting it's clarity, I do not like the Hawks on the Asgard 3 at all, I sometimes found putting more power into the Hawks isn't always beneficial.

On a side note I have a Kaldas Research RR 1 Conquest on the way, very curious how they are going to sound compared to my dynamics.

They're fairly sensitive, I also find they don't scale much at all. They tend to reach their potiential early. Even on my Taurus MKII and Black Widow they sound the same when it comes to resolve and capabilities as my Spark(phenomonal amp for the price btw)

I do find however the Nighthawk has good resolution, decent macro and micro; just a terrible frequency response lol. They're about on par resolution wise to something like a ZMF Eikon but the Eikon doesn't have weirs design choices and a weird FR so it's easier to hear the capabilities. They're below a HD650, Verum, HE-500 however.