Audiophile cables, an interesting question.
Sep 23, 2014 at 3:12 PM Post #1,036 of 1,186
Certainly differences in subjective opinion would also make analysis difficult.

 
There is no subjectivity involved in such an analysis. They would, however, be left in the position of having to explain why they claim to hear differences when none exists. Awkward. 
 
Avoiding doing such a test (and claiming that machines are incapable of doing such an analysis - or other drek to discredit objective measures) - allows them to continue to milk/bilk their target audience with a mostly clear conscience. 
 
(hint - we're not their target audience)
 
Sep 23, 2014 at 4:39 PM Post #1,037 of 1,186
   
There is no subjectivity involved in such an analysis. They would, however, be left in the position of having to explain why they claim to hear differences when none exists. Awkward. 
 
Avoiding doing such a test (and claiming that machines are incapable of doing such an analysis - or other drek to discredit objective measures) - allows them to continue to milk/bilk their target audience with a mostly clear conscience. 
 
(hint - we're not their target audience)

 
I look at some of those magazines like a Hammacher Schlemmer catalogue now. The ads only have value in context of a serious magazine. I see their editors doubling down in the comments section of their websites, refusing to budge from their perceptions nor willing to use the testing equipment readily available to them to confirm or deny them. They have doubled down so much, that now everything is on the table for them. And for silly boutique ads selling cables? Very awkward indeed. 
 
Sep 23, 2014 at 6:19 PM Post #1,039 of 1,186
Exactly. My point is that you can't quantify difference, therefore it's not possible to demonstrate or prove any difference.

Yes you can. esldude just did. The difference is about 1/1000th of a decibel.
 
Having upgraded HD650 cable, noted improvement. Others may not.

Right, but I can all but guarantee that difference was not real, just expectation bias or one of the other hundreds of crazy things our brains like to do to reality.
 
Sep 23, 2014 at 6:42 PM Post #1,040 of 1,186
Exactly. My point is that you can't quantify difference, therefore it's not possible to demonstrate or prove any difference. Having upgraded HD650 cable, noted improvement. Others may not.


You absolutely can. The "character" of a difference may be subjective, but you can absolutely show when one does and does not exist, and to what magnitude. 

Edit. I should clarify. You can not 100% prove there is no difference. You can not prove the negative. BUT - you can show many times over that no difference was demonstrated under different methodologies and test equipment. Anyone who wishes to claim they can hear one when we could not measure one, must then prove they are more sensitive than our recording equipment and can discern differences smaller than 1/1000th of a decible. Something which would be fairly easy to test and demonstrate. As it is, scientific uncertainty is not enough of a reason to claim the results are invalid, and no uncontrolled subjective listening test overturns objective evidences on its own.
 
Sep 23, 2014 at 8:06 PM Post #1,041 of 1,186
The source files were in 88.2khz, so I had to up sample to 96khz. These are the differences, downloadable from Google Drive. 
 
There's slight noise shared between all files, possibly created in processing. They all sound exactly the same though.   
 
Edit 9/25/2014 - File Locations and exported formats changed, see post #1054
 
New links:
 
Source vs Gotham: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6GfCo1MWrJgY3YzbHZJNU5RQnc/view?usp=sharing
 
Source vs Mogami: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6GfCo1MWrJgSUR3VjFQX1NZTk0/view?usp=sharing
 
Source vs Vovox:  https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6GfCo1MWrJgT0tKOElWaWdDTVU/view?usp=sharing
 
Source vs Sommer: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6GfCo1MWrJgTHNnUUh3MXFOeFE/view?usp=sharing
 
Gotham vs Sommer: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6GfCo1MWrJgMXZ3WFphZ3pEZUU/view?usp=sharing
 
Mogami vs Gotham:  https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6GfCo1MWrJgUVVlT3FPaUFmM2M/view?usp=sharing
 
Mogami vs Vovox:  https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6GfCo1MWrJgSm5TbkFmTFJ1Mnc/view?usp=sharing
 
Vovox vs Sommer:     https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6GfCo1MWrJgd2RFandNRlQ2RUU/view?usp=sharing
 
Sep 23, 2014 at 8:38 PM Post #1,042 of 1,186
Having upgraded HD650 cable, noted improvement. Others may not.


we tend to inhabit a section where believing isn't proof of reality. with the hd650 you would need to go for an "upgrade" cable that really mess things up a lot before you could actually hear anything. and that is factual measurable repeatable reality.
the process of changing cable and placing the hd650 back on your head can already change the signature by no less than a few DB. http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD650.pdf
look at the FR lines. in gray are the measurements Tyll did while adjusting the hd650 on the dummy head to get the best seal/position. as you can see +/-5DB on both ends of the frequencies aren't at all impossible.
 
  just listening to music, then changing to another cable I prepared, with the sides of the plugs very obvious and a switch to avoid having to unplug both cables from the amp, it took me close to 25s with my own hd650. how well can you remember the sonic signature after 25second? yeah right!
 even if you actually heard a difference and didn't just imagine it, then you have zero credible way to ascertain the differences were from the cable and not from the way you placed the headphone. (maybe one cable is heavy and the hd650 goes 0.3mm lower on your ears? or you simply couldn't consistently put the headphone back at the same place?  but as long as the possibility exists, you shouldn't pretend that you know it comes from the cable. it's simple logic when solving a problem.
 
the way you did it looks like this: there are 3 people in a room, you decided that the mustache one is the criminal, notice a knife on the table and claim "ahah I knew it was the mustache guy!".
you wouldn't do that on a criminal case, plz don't do it for a cable. don't just pick a culprit at random when you have no way to dismiss the other hypothesis.
 
now open minded me tries to justify sound difference:
let's say one cable is an ok cable, with the right average specs for an headphone cable(99% of headphone cables). if the other one is super long with something like 10 more ohm compared to the first one. that would make the bass go up close to 0.1DB at 80hz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! because of the hd650 impedance response. now let's pretend that the high frequencies gets rolled off by the length of the cable or some weird choice of diameter or not enough insulation, trying to impact inductance/capacitance(the most impressive way to modify this would be to use a design that is wrong for headphone cables, as default cables are usually already made for a given purpose, so clearly not an upgrade). then because I'm in a good mood and I know for having handled one, that ludicrous audio cables do exist, I grant 0.1DB roll off somewhere close to bat frequencies.
creating in that messed up scenario, a 0.2DB tilt from bass to high frequencies. (trying to do the opposite and improve the cable specs would be a lot harder as the margin would have to be much smaller, and so would be the audio changes).
first you should seriously consider the fact that the default hd650 cable is probably the better one of them. secondly, how confident are you that you would be able to spot 0.2DB spread over the entire spectrum, when you can get at the same time up to 5DB difference from placing the headphone back on your head, and with a 30s lapse between the 2 music samples?
oh and I forgot the best for the end, close to 0.3DB in volume level difference from the 10ohm difference in the cable. meaning that overall loudness difference will be bigger than the actual sound differences.
 
  you can keep pretending that your superior ears can track what we can't, but now I've explained how extravagant it makes you look to simply consider that option.
 
Sep 23, 2014 at 11:02 PM Post #1,043 of 1,186
  The source files were in 88.2khz, so I had to up sample to 96khz. These are the differences, downloadable from Google Drive. 
 
Source vs. Mogami: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6GfCo1MWrJgOThwZjFCclh5RFE&authuser=0
Source vs. Vovox:  https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6GfCo1MWrJgaGpvMU1YandmZ28&authuser=0
Source vs. Sommer:  https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6GfCo1MWrJgVnFmRTRtNmswTGM&authuser=0
Mogami vs. Vovox:  https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6GfCo1MWrJgLVN5WGFxZE5jZlU&authuser=0
Mogami vs. Gotham:  https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6GfCo1MWrJgdzBTNjF1eFVMcDQ&authuser=0
Vovox vs. Gotham: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6GfCo1MWrJgaUo3WTFRX2NNYzg&authuser=0
Vovox vs. Sommer: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6GfCo1MWrJgbG1UUlQyLXRNZTQ&authuser=0
 
There's slight noise shared between all files, possibly created in processing. They all sound exactly the same though.   


Just curious which software you used to convert to 96 khz.  Some software will do this with no audible issues some will leave a bit of residue. 
 
Sep 24, 2014 at 4:41 AM Post #1,047 of 1,186
 
Just curious which software you used to convert to 96 khz.  Some software will do this with no audible issues some will leave a bit of residue. 

I used Audacity on PC, changed project rate and just exported. I might try down sampling to 44.1 to see if it introduces any noise, but the results are only supposed to measure differences, of which there are none, so its conclusive enough for me already.
 
Have you guys been able to download it? I tried to download it on a PC that wasn't signed into Google Drive and get this message: "Sorry, you can't view or download this file at this time. Too many users have viewed or downloaded this file recently. Please try accessing the file again later. If the file you are trying to access is particularly large or is shared with many people, it may take up to 24 hours to be able to view or download the file. If you still can't access a file after 24 hours, contact your domain administrator." 
 
Not sure why it is doing this, since the files are all within limit. Hrmphh.  
 
Sep 24, 2014 at 6:13 AM Post #1,049 of 1,186
  I used Audacity on PC, changed project rate and just exported. I might try down sampling to 44.1 to see if it introduces any noise, but the results are only supposed to measure differences, of which there are none, so its conclusive enough for me already.

 
I cannot download the files because of an error, but exporting to stereo 16-bit PCM may be buggy in Audacity, and have a relatively high noise floor (~-80 dB) due to broken noise shaped dithering.
 
Sep 24, 2014 at 12:46 PM Post #1,050 of 1,186
I could not access the files either.  As for resampling and such, if you have Audacity 2.03 or newer and have conversion set to Best Quality with some dither in preferences it uses Sox for resampling.  Sox is a very good quality converter.  Any artifacts are low enough not to worry.  You also don't need to downconvert to 16 bit unless Google drive requires it.
 

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