Audio Science Review AES Paper Presentation on Audio DACs
Dec 12, 2023 at 12:52 PM Post #46 of 60
Figured I would check in after a few months. Sad to see, nothing has changed and if anything, has gotten worse.

Having taken a step back, it’s clear what the issue is. One member wants to play both the science card (frequently incorrectly) and the subjectivist card (opinion cast as fact) depending on which fits the position of the day. Mix that in with a large scoop of projection topped with an acute case of Dunning Kruger and almost every thread gets derailed.

At least I now understand why so many of the valuable contributors leave over time.
 
Dec 12, 2023 at 1:13 PM Post #47 of 60
At least I now understand why so many of the valuable contributors leave over time.
William Shakespeare — 'No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity but I know none and therefore am no beast?'
 
Dec 12, 2023 at 1:40 PM Post #48 of 60
I’ve been banned from threads here on head-fi many more times than that. Typically for discussing science outside this science subforum, when in fact I hadn’t even mentioned any science, let alone discussed it. Now that’s weird! I can’t really comment on why you were banned on ASR without knowing the details.
Yes, many, many of my posts have been disappeared from H-F. I do agree with some moderator-ship; but when forums get large, so do vested interests.

About banning "details" at ASR.
My entire 5-page thread about "re-capping cd players" was disappeared.
Google has cache of a snip of it. Put the following into Google SE:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com re-capping cd player
I was able to recover most of the HTML pages because I had the thread opened in Safari. Maybe I'll post it here sometime. Definitely on Reddit.
What led to the ban was something ???? in this thread.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ysterious-digital-filter-and-dac-chips.48723/
Some posts have been weirdly poofed. Dunno what was upsetting???? Notice that one of the members was SO BORED that he went totally off-topic and inquired about the PDF software I was using. And I even kindly responded to that non-sequitur.
 
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Dec 12, 2023 at 2:06 PM Post #49 of 60
Castle, I’m stepping back here and not fighting. You may want to put this thread back on track.
 
Dec 13, 2023 at 1:27 AM Post #50 of 60
Yes, many, many of my posts have been disappeared from H-F.
In my case, I get one or more posts deleted and also banned from any further posting to the thread.
I do agree with some moderator-ship; but when forums get large, so do vested interests.
That’s largely inevitable, to a degree. A large forum costs money to maintain/service/administer, which requires sponsorship and/or advertising revenue. We can argue the intricacies of SINAD and it’s relationship (and potential lack of it) to human hearing perception but personally, I’d far rather have DAC manufacturers competing on that and other objective metrics than on “musicality”, “PRaT”, “Synergy” and whatever other marketing BS/audiophile myths they can get away with. How compromised ASR is by “vested interests” I don’t know but it’s certainly more difficult to get away with when it’s based on objective metrics, because other people/sites can do their own measurements to verify, and it certainly doesn’t appear to be anywhere near as bad as most of Head-Fi. I’m sure anything that’s too critical of Amir probably wouldn’t last long though, Amir is not at all amenable to criticism or having his assertions challenged, even if it’s justified. And certainly, there does appear to be some over zealous Amir/ASR fans, though not as many in my (limited) experience as often portrayed by others.
There’s nothing in those posts I noticed that seemed too objectionable but I can’t really judge any of it’s veracity, I’m not an EE or beyond some basics, well versed in the circuit/chip design considerations of CD players in the mid/late 1980’s. I can see that this statement: “Maybe it's because in R&D facilities and listening rooms at Sony and Philips and NEC, folks were not just measuring, but listening and "voicing" and tuning by ear.” - could potentially cause some backlash and “kick off” but no one seems to have picked up on it. So beyond the obvious, that it’s a highly specialised thread subject of limited interest and usefulness to all but a very tiny niche, I don’t know what caused it.

G
 
Dec 13, 2023 at 10:26 AM Post #52 of 60
For goodness sakes guys, it is an informal internet forum, settle down.

I think it goes without saying that things that are stated are just a persons point of view unless qualified as fact with accompanying evidence. This might be a science based forum but it isn’t a formal lecture series or some such where one should have to be absolutely clear to define their position on a subject before beginning their presentation.
I like that in principle. At a personal level, I tend to reject empty claims without a need to contest them publicly. But I do feel that your approach in this section, while a solution of peace and simplicity, will lean strongly toward letting anybody claim anything, and too many people believing it. Someone still has to voice a doubt or simply reject the statement for most people to even consider that it might be BS. Because in practice, when reading a random thread on a random subject, most people do tend to trust the overly self-confident, the famous, or even better, the guy who says what they already believe. Evidence is a tiny aspect of what convinces people. It sucks, but humans are like that.
I would really like to have a community educated in thinking your way.



@bigshot, you ask a lot from others but very little from yourself when it comes to statements' rigor, protocols, evidence and so on. You wouldn't stand someone treating you like you do so many others.
You routinely mock people, and I allow you to get away with it most of the time (worst that happens to you is a deleted post here and there, usually way too late so nobody even notices). Be it you or gregorio, you often go too far, disrespect and bully people too much. You certainly have a different way to go at it, but the result is really the same for the guy under fire. Head-fi isn't the place for that.
We end up having some fairly serious discussion (or just me ranting in PM) nearly once a year, when pretty much everybody is fed up with your behavior, and I'm between a rock and hard place, trying to stop you guys from getting banned, because we're pretty much old friends, while also having to admit that most of the complaints are legit. I keep trying to reinvent the wheel so that something changes that doesn't involve a ban.
When it's some random 'know it all' who never even googled the topic he claims to know for a fact, I confess to thinking "good riddance" when he gives up posting under the weight of your punches. But more and more, you're also pushing away people who would have interesting things to share. People telling me they give up on this subforum because of either one of you, or both, isn't a one-off occurrence.
This section is basically an echo chamber for both of you, instead of whatever else it could be. When someone criticizes the forum, it's because they don't make the distinction between it and you. It's been like this for a while, and no matter how much I value you, the loss starts to feel like maybe you're not worth it all. I don't know how else to say it.
I'm guilty of not enforcing the TOS. That's so incredibly obvious to anybody coming here. At the same time, The very reason I ended up modo was my desire to fight bans and stop losing people I valued who had gone too far one time too many(so often being triggered by some moron who couldn't care about anything but himself). This situation is a testimony to my failure. It validates what Curra and his mighty ban hammer was doing before me. I hate to think that's true, but we're heading toward yet another time when the question of keeping you here is brought up. Gregorio got saved by a hair last time. But here we are again, with displeased people, and me failing to refute their arguments.


Sorry for derailing OP's thread, depending on how this goes and who gets involved, I guess those posts will go away or be moved to another thread. What I wish to remind everybody of, is how a forum is only an expression of the people posting in it. By not participating because you don't like what is posted, you miss the opportunity to make this forum whatever you want it to be, and everybody else misses the opportunity to read something else.
 
Dec 13, 2023 at 11:01 AM Post #54 of 60
I don't see anything there and the last post is from 3 weeks before the other thread. That other thread however, I have only google-cached version but I can imagine how it ended:

recapping.png
 
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Dec 13, 2023 at 11:14 AM Post #55 of 60
I like that in principle. At a personal level, I tend to reject empty claims without a need to contest them publicly. But I do feel that your approach in this section, while a solution of peace and simplicity, will lean strongly toward letting anybody claim anything, and too many people believing it. Someone still has to voice a doubt or simply reject the statement for most people to even consider that it might be BS. Because in practice, when reading a random thread on a random subject, most people do tend to trust the overly self-confident, the famous, or even better, the guy who says what they already believe. Evidence is a tiny aspect of what convinces people. It sucks, but humans are like that.
I would really like to have a community educated in thinking your way.
Yeah, the Milgram experiments proved that only too well.

I'll say this. Disagreeableness is not a socially desirable trait, there's a lot going on under the hood of humans that link seemingly innocuous topics to very deep emotional nerves that can trigger all out wars over seemingly meaningless differences of opinion. I'm not surprised in the slightest people get driven away by disagreeable people, I have to deal with that kind of stuff as a mediator often, so I get why people decide to fall on the side of censorship when they get a taste of what freedom of speech entails.

Disagreeable people are indispensable in discourse because they tend to enforce intellectual honesty and act as a very important ballast against the persuasive power of charisma. When someone like Dr. Christmas shrouds himself in unearned intellectual authority and speaks complete nonsense with inexplicable charismatic force, someone needs to be there who can call out the obvious and advocate for the opposing opinion. It's such a shame that people like that often go around making enemies because they can't stop this trait, but excluding people like that because of their abrasiveness is like destroying your castle's walls and expecting to remain safe from attack.

I'm not saying that nothing should be done, far from it. I think you recognize this dynamic and have a good strategy to tackle this, the question comes down to tactics. The rules on proper logical argumentation just need to be enforced consistently IMO, both of these flare-ups that happened recently happened because of attacks on character that went unaddressed for quite a long time.
 
Dec 13, 2023 at 11:57 AM Post #57 of 60
I think some would prefer it if everything technical was written in an archaic language so only they could decipher it … and be thought of as brilliant 🤪
… ‘archaic’ or ‘arcane’ … 🤔
 
Dec 14, 2023 at 1:43 AM Post #60 of 60
I don't see anything there and the last post is from 3 weeks before the other thread. That other thread however, I have only google-cached version but I can imagine how it ended:

Ouch, that would certainly do it. Just the old audiophile myth/BS of capacitors would “raise the hackles” but invoking “scientific procedures/measurements” is way worse, a “red rag to a bull” on a site pretty much dedicated to scientific measurements. I’m not sure why @alphaman thinks his ban was due to a different thread that appears innocuous enough, maybe just an inadvertent mistake?

G
 
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