Some vinyl is mastered better than the cd version though so far as the loudness war thing is concerned but I still cant get past the missing highs...
unless you get a cheap sub 100 dollar turntable that will give you sibilance from hell to substitute for proper highs... like the 80s remixes style hehehe
Interesting you value the information over 14khz so much when the headphones in your profile (the ones I could find FR graphs for at least) all roll off in that area...
on the contrary, the 580s/600s extend up there among the best. They just dont push the lower treble up. So many people get confused by brightness and extension, they are not the same thing.
lookee here for example the hd600s will even sound more extended than the grado 225s in the highs because the top end is not covered up by the lower treble. The fact is that they have about the same extension but you can hear it more on the senns because the low end brightness is not drying up the sound like the peaky grado. And yah, Ive heard both
just think if you match the brightness in level with those 2 cans by changing the levels to match... you will see that the 225s have much less top end extension because of the huge nosedive above 10khz.
Its that top end extension that make the hd580s relatively airier than grados. The grados have a more distictive cymbal attack that doesnt decay as sweet and airy(due to the nosedive in the upper freqs). Its the same thing I hear when i listen to vinyl vs cd... The vinyl(of course this is more dependent on equipment used than cd players in general) is more grounded and less airy sounding because of the lack of extension. And of course, higher end TTs wont have brightness in the lower treble like cheaper tables.
You don't really need to spend 2k for getting some semi-decent high from turntable. I believe mid-range turntable (technics) and get semi-decent cart such as Grado ones (300~700$). Then other than phono stage you get a good setup at 1k, or I heard so.
hehehe i heard one for $400 before too some low end Sota like a moonbeam and it was okay but just the same... No top end. I compared a cd vs the lp of the album upstairs at erics by yaz. That doesnt even have much top end to begin with. The sota made the attack a little soft so i guess the roll off creeped all the way down to the lower treble there too.
Originally Posted by wnmnkh /img/forum/go_quote.gif And there is no way Vinyl has more resolution than CD PCM.
1. Treble is usually dramatically reduced during Vinyl process because treble content stress the machine (give cutting heads for making master disk) and many mechanical imperfections during manufacturing also do not help. Not to mention cartridges also attenuate treble information further, final result is low as I mentioned on one of earlier posts.
2. Dynamic range, Vinyl at average is 50 db, good one is 60 db and rarely go above 80 db. CDs can easily achieve 90 db and can go as far as ~110db if it is well made. No contest.
3. No possible error detection/correction for Vinyl and any other analog. While with help of EAC and other software you can achieve bit-perfect copy for digital path.
Vinyl is the format which is polar opposite of high-definition.
So many misconceptions here so I will correct:
1. Treble is not compressed on LP mastering/cutting at all. The RIAA curve is put in place (because of bass) but there's no real loss there. In fact, the LP can handle a 50khz signal which is equivalent via Nyquist to a 100khz sampling rate. I will post a Ludwig quote on this later.
2. Dynamic range on a good LP is very wide, much wider than 50db. In practice there is no real audible diminishment of dynamics.
3. Vinyl represents a continuous signal based usually on an analog master. You don't actually need error correction as you do in digital.
Many people here don't realize how good the analog formats are. {sigh}
It is customary to believe that the CD is superior to the LP in terms of bandwidth, but this is not the case. The CD is limited to 22,000 cycles, whereas the LP is able to reproduce frequencies up to 50,000 cycles, which in the PCM world equals a sampling rate at 100 kHz. The bottom line is that LPs mastered with DMM still sound really good.
Originally Posted by donunus /img/forum/go_quote.gif on the contrary, the 580s/600s extend up there among the best. They just dont push the lower treble up. So many people get confused by brightness and extension, they are not the same thing.
lookee here for example the hd600s will even sound more extended than the grado 225s in the highs because the top end is not covered up by the lower treble. The fact is that they have about the same extension but you can hear it more on the senns because the low end brightness is not drying up the sound like the peaky grado. And yah, Ive heard both
This graph is one I link to as I prefer the 225s for recording. Neither set of cans is flat but having midrange suckout on the DH600s complicates a recording engineer's life, especially on string instruments. I need to hear the detail to manage the mic locations on rehearsals. I like having the 600s as well and my buddy Nick's cans are plugged into the SoundDevices and we switch the cans throughout to listen for different things. I also find the Grados to be more revealing across the board by YMMV.
Originally Posted by donunus /img/forum/go_quote.gif 14khz and above is not usually heard with turntables even in the 2 to 3000 dollar levels so its either vinyl lovers are stuck in the past, don't care for extended highs, or have some $100,000 and up turntable that can play highs like a cd can hehehe
{facepalm} See Bob Ludwig quote.
All modern cutting heads and carts extend to 20khz+.
Ive read that Bob Ludwig thing years ago but for my ears and the ears of everyone else listening at the places where there are vinyl and cd rigs setup Ive been to... The cd always has the shimmer and the vinyl is always like FM radio in the upper highs in direct comparison. The recent system I compared consisted of a VPI much like yours vs an Accuphase CD player.
Lots of people prefer the vinyls presentation but the refined shimmer and decay of sounds are just dried out with the vinyl rig IMO. The vinyl presentation reminded me of my Havana dac actually which really does come close to that vinyl presentation.
And yah, sure the carts extend all the way up but like mentioned earlier in this thread, there are physical limits of what can mechanically be picked up when the grooves are very thin. Whatever the technical explanation is, I really don't know but all I know is that I trust my ears. Ive heard high end cd vs high end vinyl way too many times and know very well the differences in sound between both. Not all rigs sound the same but in all the rigs Ive heard it was never the case where the cd felt airless when semi decent recordings are used.
Everything here is My opinion and from my listening experiences so don't take things too seriously. FACEPALM hehehe
Originally Posted by donunus /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ive read that Bob Ludwig thing years ago but for my ears and the ears of everyone else listening at the places where there are vinyl and cd rigs setup Ive been to... The cd always has the shimmer and the vinyl is always like FM radio in the upper highs in direct comparison. The recent system I compared consisted of a VPI much like yours vs an Accuphase CD player.
Lots of people prefer the vinyls presentation but the refined shimmer and decay of sounds are just dried out with the vinyl rig IMO. The vinyl presentation reminded me of my Havana dac actually which really does come close to that vinyl presentation.
And yah, sure the carts extend all the way up but like mentioned earlier in this thread, there are physical limits of what can mechanically be picked up when the grooves are very thin. Whatever the technical explanation is, I really don't know but all I know is that I trust my ears. Ive heard high end cd vs high end vinyl way too many times and know very well the differences in sound between both. Not all rigs sound the same but in all the rigs Ive heard it was never the case where the cd felt airless when semi decent recordings are used.
Everything here is My opinion and from my listening experiences so don't take things too seriously. FACEPALM hehehe
I hear the opposite on fine turntables from Avid to Clearaudio to VPI. I hear extended highs, lots of air around the instruments, and oodles of HF detail. It may be the system you are listening to if you are missing the highs. Table, tonearm, cart and phono stage are all important to doing this right.
CD does have better bass in some ways but with a good pressing and well-designed table (in my experience a heavy, thick platter, solid isolation, and quality tonearm) the LP does a fantastic job there as well.
Originally Posted by donunus /img/forum/go_quote.gif one thing where it could have gone wrong though is the calibration. don't know since I don't own those systems that I heard
This is an excellent point. In my experience, turntable setup is really important to the final sound. It's really an art form to doing a precision setup. VTA, VTF, azimuth, platter speed, levelness of platter, LP clamping, etc....all must be perfect for the best results.
Originally Posted by TwoTrack /img/forum/go_quote.gif So many misconceptions here so I will correct:
1. Treble is not compressed on LP mastering/cutting at all. The RIAA curve is put in place (because of bass) but there's no real loss there. In fact, the LP can handle a 50khz signal which is equivalent via Nyquist to a 100khz sampling rate. I will post a Ludwig quote on this later.
2. Dynamic range on a good LP is very wide, much wider than 50db. In practice there is no real audible diminishment of dynamics.
3. Vinyl represents a continuous signal based usually on an analog master. You don't actually need error correction as you do in digital.
Many people here don't realize how good the analog formats are. {sigh}
1. I believe you are using Nyquist in opposite way. if it can handle 50kHz then it is represents as 25kHz to our ears. But, it really never accurately play any above 20kHz due to very obvious limitations. (one of reason why CD-4 was made, was to handle information accurately to 45kHz) And no, I am not talking about RIAA curve. I am talking about the process on mechanical/manufacture respects.
And no again, you only talked half of the problems of why Vinyl cannot properly play treble. Way too many end-user playback devices attenuate those high-frequencies (which is smart, since those high-freq information is terribly inaccurate in the first place) thus there is little/no/worse performance compared to CD in reality.
2. Dynamic range of LP is much wider than 50db? As I said, at best it's 80db. Please, understand that it is bound by law of physics. There is no way you can manipulate law of physics. There is no way LP can compete with CD for this regard unless CD is terribly mastered.
3. I lost my words there.
ALL machines have thing called "error". Errors are introduced in EVERY stage of the analog lines because they are all mechanical parts. Digital also have error being introduced, but the number of incidents are FAR FEWER.
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