AUDIO over IP - REDNET 3 & 16 Review. AES67 Sets A New Standard for Computer Audio

[hieukm]

I got excited reading about AOIP solutions. However, it seems my Chord Dave dont benefit from as its completely isolated from USB jitter. Secondly, Dave dont seems to benefit from a external clocks(master clock/word clock). Both issued been address by Chord Dave internal design.

Can you guys shed some lights on it?

trial and return is not an option as i live in Asia.

 

[astrostar59]

I got excited reading about AOIP solutions. However, it seems my Chord Dave dont benefit from as its completely isolated from USB jitter. Secondly, Dave dont seems to benefit from a external clocks(master clock/word clock). Both issued been address by Chord Dave internal design.

Can you guys shed some lights on it?

trial and return is not an option as i live in Asia.

Seems as though any USB feed / input is compromised regardless of the design, as USB has unavoidable problems such as jitter induced latency, noise amongst others. I fancy giving Rednet a go to see what all the fuss is about, but it does sound promising. Some of the 25K+ DAC are now offering Ethernet input so they have recognised the bottlenecks. Having said all that, I have got USB better than any CDP I have tried, so all good IMO. Bring it on.

 

[hieukm]

http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/3390

Please refer to post 3395 for reference.

Chord Dave has no word clock input.

I would love to try out the combo AOIP/10M OCXO clock/Antelope liveclock/3xMutec spdif reclock if it gets me close to the ultimate vinyl/tape sound.

It has been lacking comparison on how AOIP as the ultimate digital solution stack up against the Vinyl/tape sound.

 

[Iving]

I would love to try out the combo AOIP/10M OCXO clock/Antelope liveclock/3xMutec spdif reclock if it gets me close to the ultimate vinyl/tape sound.

It has been lacking comparison on how AOIP as the ultimate digital solution stack up against the Vinyl/tape sound.

 
My RedNet setup is not what you describe as "the ultimate digital solution" [we are not all agreed and anyway we are not there yet!], but see this post for a head start: http://www.head-fi.org/t/806827/audio-over-ip-rednet-3-16-review-aes67-sets-a-new-standard-for-computer-audio/1170#post_12743564. A recent PC upgrade catapulted the RedNet/Dangerous Convert-2 score from 8 to 9 (see recent post).
 
All that said, I still believe - imho - but I will attest to the end - there is something about vinyl that never will be beaten - a certain kind of analogue experience that digits will never wholly replace. My comparative scores (6 for LP12/Ittok/Troika vs. 8 or 9 for RedNet/Convert-2 depending on PC) are "satisfaction" scores - subjective of course.
 
A spend-for-spend comparison is what is needed - How does 5k spent before the pre-amp - analogue vs. AOIP compare? That requires 10k on those sources alone. I haven't been able to do that. No-one to my knowledge has come close either. Not in this thread anyway.
 
I do think it a possible error to think you can *replace* vinyl with AOIP. You cannot undo history. You cannot insert something else for the nostalgic inheritance of 1956-1980. It's just not possible. But if you go for it - send me a PM with first refusal on your records.

 

[hieukm]

Well my point was that with AOIP audio, we have basicly deal with digital weakness in all front:

- 10M clock and word clock to deal with timing
- AOIP deal with galvanic isolation
- Mutec USB to deal with jitter + galvanic isolation
- FMC to deal with galvanic isolation in between

Btw, i understand that this is a headphone oriented forum however i believe there are some members who have vẻy nice speakers system and willing to go to the extreme to match vinyl record.

A 10k drop on the 10M clock/word clock/AOIP/SPDIF reclocker/ to improve on source on a high end speakers system is nothing special, imho.

 

[Iving]

Well my point was that with AOIP audio, we have basicly deal with digital weakness in all front:

- 10M clock and word clock to deal with timing
- AOIP deal with galvanic isolation
- Mutec USB to deal with jitter + galvanic isolation
- FMC to deal with galvanic isolation in between

Btw, i understand that this is a headphone oriented forum however i believe there are some members who have vẻy nice speakers system and willing to go to the extreme to match vinyl record.

A 10k drop to improve on source on a high end speakers system is nothing special, imho.

 
The massive improvement obtained with a PC upgrade challenges the "galvanic isolation" presumption. There are contributions earlier in this thread that challenge the benefit of FMCs.
 
I'll look forward to your report on 10k+ spent!

 

[hieukm]

The massive improvement obtained with a PC upgrade challenges the "galvanic isolation" presumption. There are contributions earlier in this thread that challenge the benefit of FMCs.

I'll look forward to your report on 10k+ spent!

Well if i feel that this 10K will get me more benefit than buying a Shunyata Daneli, High Fidelity Cable/ Entreq grounding or Tripoint/ which are my intended next upgrade then i would go for it.

 

[Iving]

Well if i feel that this 10K will get me more benefit than buying a Shunyata Daneli, High Fidelity Cable/ Entreq grounding or Tripoint/ which are my intended next upgrade then i would go for it.

 
Guess that would depend on your existing system including quality of local mains etc. This thread generally holds that AOIP is a revolution over USB. Any AOIP reports you can furnish will go down well here.

 

[somestranger26]

   
The massive improvement obtained with a PC upgrade challenges the "galvanic isolation" presumption. There are contributions earlier in this thread that challenge the benefit of FMCs.
 
I'll look forward to your report on 10k+ spent!

Ethernet is already galvanically isolated by design.
 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/3390

Please refer to post 3395 for reference.

Chord Dave has no word clock input.

I would love to try out the combo AOIP/10M OCXO clock/Antelope liveclock/3xMutec spdif reclock if it gets me close to the ultimate vinyl/tape sound.

It has been lacking comparison on how AOIP as the ultimate digital solution stack up against the Vinyl/tape sound.

Save your money and just get one MC-3+ USB instead of 3 Mutec MC-3 daisy-chained.

 

[alubis]

I don't have Chord Dave, but I do have Chord Hugo and Chord Hugo TT. Hugo TT has better usb implementation compared to Chord Hugo, and if I'm not mistaken Chord Hugo TT usb implementation is similar to Chord Dave.

Despite Rob Watts preference with usb input for Hugo TT, my ears tell me Hugo TT fed by rednet d16 via spdif is better. The good thing about chord dacs is their jitter are low fed from spdif or usb. So my conclusion is that jitter and galvanic isolation are not the only problems, but the transfer mechanism/protocol matters as well.

I got excited reading about AOIP solutions. However, it seems my Chord Dave dont benefit from as its completely isolated from USB jitter. Secondly, Dave dont seems to benefit from a external clocks(master clock/word clock). Both issued been address by Chord Dave internal design.

Can you guys shed some lights on it?

trial and return is not an option as i live in Asia.

 

[motberg]

   
The massive improvement obtained with a PC upgrade challenges the "galvanic isolation" presumption. There are contributions earlier in this thread that challenge the benefit of FMCs.
 
I'll look forward to your report on 10k+ spent!

In a way, this is good to know the investment in quiet PC building would possibly not be lost going to AOIP..
 
Another monitor maker with Dante:
http://www.hedd.audio/en/hedd-bridge/
 
I really think when talking ultimate stuff, it should be considered to remove the SPDIF/AES conversion from the primary path to the DAC.. I understand that SPDIF/AES allows flexibility, backward compatibility, and may be a requirement for a studio environment, but with CA changing so rapidly I think it is OK to think a little outside the box and more along the direct AOIP->i2S idea, that would still allow compatibility with most current DAC chips (iiuc). Lots of DIY folks swap USB input modules in their DAC's, i.e.: XMOS for Amanero, etc..

 

[jabbr]

Ethernet is already galvanically isolated by design.

Not so/sufficiently.
It is a known fact from my experience and and professional studios that proper LAN isolators like Accusence GISO GB can give big improvements.
So something is not completely right in the default 'galvanic' isolation of ethernet.

 

[Iving]

  Quote:

A spend-for-spend comparison is what is needed - How does 5k spent before the pre-amp - analogue vs. AOIP compare? That requires 10k on those sources alone. I haven't been able to do that. No-one to my knowledge has come close either. Not in this thread anyway.  

 

A 10k drop on the 10M clock/word clock/AOIP/SPDIF reclocker/ to improve on source on a high end speakers system is nothing special, imho.

 

Well if i feel that this 10K will get me more benefit than buying a Shunyata Daneli, High Fidelity Cable/ Entreq grounding or Tripoint/ which are my intended next upgrade then i would go for it.

 

When I think about it
I have over 5k spent on my AOIP front end anyway:
1.5k on (new) PC,
1.2k on D16 AES and
2.3k on Convert-2
without taking account of cables etc.
Satisfaction score = 9/10 for current argument's sake
Arbitrary I know but just to make a point ...
 
A spend for spend exercise requires 5k+ on a vinyl rig
My LP12/Ittok/Troika is about 1.5k current *second hand*
Satisfaction score was 6/10
One could argue that good condition second hand is about 2/3 of New
Arbitrary I know but just to make a point ...
So the "New equivalent" value of my 1980s LP12 is say 2.25k
 
So "satisfaction" score per k on AOIP is 9/5 = 1.8
and "satisfaction" score per k on LP12 is 6/2.25 = 2.67
So vinyl is doing pretty good
being about 50% more bang-for-buck than AOIP
 
A better comparison is a new 5k vinyl front end
What LP12 (or other deck) can I buy for 5k now?
Well - something like this: http://petertyson.co.uk/linn-akurate-lp12-turntable.html?gcpc&gclid=CJDHxNzFrM8CFUefGwoduf4Gpw.
 
Now I get a certain lustful feeling when I look at that
 
But my most striking thought this morning
even tho' I am a vinyl fan thru and thru
and believe so strongly in the social history of the vinyl era 1956-1980
            rockabilly explosion 1956
            peaking of rock and West Coast creativity about 1973
            music dead with arrival of punk
            nothing new since
            except maybe Travis
            not forgetting the "lost" original transcription of Bobfest 30th 1992 and the exquisite "My Back Pages" including the best guitar solo ever in history rendered by Eric Clapton in that performance
 
is that if I had 3k to spend today
to make my spend 10k all told on a 5k vs 5k comparison
"nothing special" after all
*I would spend it on my AOIP route not the LP12 upgrade*
 
So I couldn't report on a 10k comparison even if I had the inclination to spend the extra 3k
 
I can get a big nostalgic and musical thrill playing 7" records on a lesser deck than my LP12
I have five record decks all told
And I have to keep getting out of my chair - poor me
 
Now rare rockabilly singles can cost a great deal
But I can buy shedloads of archive rockabilly on CD for very little by comparison (same goes for rare English folk and Americana too)
And I can wade thru it from my coffee table barely moving a muscle
So the extra "satisfaction" integral in marginal AOIP spend is greater than in marginal vinyl spend
Vinyl is far from dead
But now that digital "satisfaction" is comparable with vinyl "satisfaction", that is how I would spend my money
 
The question whether to invest significant sums in AOIP now very much depends on what one is trying to improve upon -
And on one's personal "satisfaction" biases
And
dare we say
Whether we are going to be overtaken on our blind sides at some new technological frontier in the very near future
 
Would love to hear from anyone who has a 5k+ record deck *AND* AOIP!

 

[REXNFX]

    Quote:
 
 

When I think about it
I have over 5k spent on my AOIP front end anyway:
1.5k on (new) PC,
1.2k on D16 AES and
2.3k on Convert-2
without taking account of cables etc.
Satisfaction score = 9/10 for current argument's sake
Arbitrary I know but just to make a point ...
 
A spend for spend exercise requires 5k+ on a vinyl rig
My LP12/Ittok/Troika is about 1.5k current *second hand*
Satisfaction score was 6/10
One could argue that good condition second hand is about 2/3 of New
Arbitrary I know but just to make a point ...
So the "New equivalent" value of my 1980s LP12 is say 2.25k
 
So "satisfaction" score per k on AOIP is 9/5 = 1.8
and "satisfaction" score per k on LP12 is 6/2.25 = 2.67
So vinyl is doing pretty good
being about 50% more bang-for-buck than AOIP
 
A better comparison is a new 5k vinyl front end
What LP12 (or other deck) can I buy for 5k now?
Well - something like this: http://petertyson.co.uk/linn-akurate-lp12-turntable.html?gcpc&gclid=CJDHxNzFrM8CFUefGwoduf4Gpw.
 
Now I get a certain lustful feeling when I look at that
 
But my most striking thought this morning
even tho' I am a vinyl fan thru and thru
and believe so strongly in the social history of the vinyl era 1956-1980
            rockabilly explosion 1956
            peaking of rock and West Coast creativity about 1973
            music dead with arrival of punk
            nothing new since
            except maybe Travis
            not forgetting the "lost" original transcription of Bobfest 30th 1992 and the exquisite "My Back Pages" including the best guitar solo ever in history rendered by Eric Clapton in that performance
 
is that if I had 3k to spend today
to make my spend 10k all told on a 5k vs 5k comparison
"nothing special" after all
*I would spend it on my AOIP route not the LP12 upgrade*
 
So I couldn't report on a 10k comparison even if I had the inclination to spend the extra 3k
 
I can get a big nostalgic and musical thrill playing 7" records on a lesser deck than my LP12
I have five record decks all told
And I have to keep getting out of my chair - poor me
 
Now rare rockabilly singles can cost a great deal
But I can buy shedloads of archive rockabilly on CD for very little by comparison (same goes for rare English folk and Americana too)
And I can wade thru it from my coffee table barely moving a muscle
So the extra "satisfaction" integral in marginal AOIP spend is greater than in marginal vinyl spend
Vinyl is far from dead
But now that digital "satisfaction" is comparable with vinyl "satisfaction", that is how I would spend my money
 
The question whether to invest significant sums in AOIP now very much depends on what one is trying to improve upon -
And on one's personal "satisfaction" biases
And
dare we say
Whether we are going to be overtaken on our blind sides at some new technological frontier in the very near future
 
Would love to hear from anyone who has a 5k+ record deck *AND* AOIP!

Trying to match vinyl has always been my aim for digital, tried loads of DAC's and haven't come close. What software player are you using? And at what point in your digital system building did you reach parity with vinyl? Cheers!

 

[Iving]

  Trying to match vinyl has always been my aim for digital, tried loads of DAC's and haven't come close. What software player are you using? And at what point in your digital system building did you reach parity with vinyl? Cheers!

 
I am 54
Unlike my peers at age 14 - in 1976 - I listened to rockabilly not Chart hits
In the 80s I hated CDs and all things digital
I sold all my records and Hi-Fi in 2002 because of circumstances
I bought CDs just to have access to at least Jackson Browne and a few others
Then realised that digits via a computer was a better economic *and* Hi-Fi proposition than a good CD player
So ripped my increasing CD collection
Tried USB following forums at CA
Got some satisfaction but always sub-vinyl
Then got a D16 AES reading this thread - adding a Convert-2 after a disappointing Yggy
That is when I realised that I could get as much "satisfaction" = goose bumps listening to digits compared with vinyl
Not a "match" tho' ...
You cannot get social history, ritual, handling albums, appreciation of musical evolution, recreation of memories etc with CDs/digits
And there is still an unbeatable certain kind of solidity playing vinyl compared with digits
But RedNet + Convert-2 beats LP12/Ittok/Troika in "satisfaction" = goose bumps - sheer octane thrill
And as I have explained in previous post I wouldn't spend more on vinyl front end now (well not too much!)
That was just a few weeks/months ago
I use foobar2000 with Sox upsampler (to 192k)
I love its simplicity
And absence of commercial motive
It outputs to Dante DVS beautifully
Especially with a nice PC
There is no need for anything else just playing my redbook collection
I admit my digits are convenience instances of my primary love - vinyl from 1956 to 1980
[What kind of cosmic coincidence is that - that the vinyl era 1956-1980 matches exactly the era of revolutionary and worthwhile non-classical music]
So folks who love adverts, commercial environments, new music, downloads, massively hi-res or massively oversampled music - may have different priorities
Cheers