[astrostar59]

 
In deference to LPS pioneers hereabouts ...
Having eavesdropped on John Swenson here: https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/29662-discussion-of-ac-mains-isolation-transformers-started-wposts-moved-from-quotlps-1-troubleshootingquot-thread/, and intending to procure a 5000VA isolation transformer (with very low capacitance of course), I ended up with a 500VA one (owing to a mistake on the part of the Seller) and wondering what to do with it.
 

Interesting, I can agree on mains noise. I went a different route with a PS Audio P10. It takes the AC sinewave, and converts it to DC then regenerates the AC as clean sinewave. I had 1.3 - 2.8% line distortion and it is now 0.1%. I also had voltage from 226V to 248V and have it set now to 230V exactly. The P10 has a sinewave and a multi wave. I don't fully understand that part. It also has shut down in an outage (no reboot to avoid spikes) has surge and overload protection.
 
I have had it for a year now. Mileage will vary depending on how far your location is away from the mains transformer in the street, and other factors such as commercial premises loading up mains with spikes and garbage. I live in a new build apartment and the transformer is at the end of our street.
 
The sound after the P10 (to the whole system) was a darker background, bigger dynamic, deeper bass and cleaner treble. Everything got cleaner, that is the best way to describe it. The peak performance time on my system before the P10 was about 2am in the morning. I get quite a bit better than that now 24/7. And it upgraded all my gear attached, i.e all my system. And I was worried in Spain as we do have outages, sometimes at 1am and the services company cluelessly try to reboot the grid, it comes on for 30 seconds then off again. Then 2 minutes later on again, then off. Not good for your hifi.
 
Going back to the Rednet LPS mod I did this week, it seems to have settled down. First few hours the bass was sucked out a bit, but I could tell more goodies were coming. Now 3 days in, it has all got better, and the bass has come back - and some. Very fast bass and more textured and tunefull. The other big change on the Rednet is the soudstage, it has got WIDER, a lot wider. The layering has expanded and everything it positioned more 3D, less glued together. It is much easier to take in what is going on. For 130USD this is the best meal ticket I have experienced in hifi so far.
 
Iving, I would press on with any LPS ideas after the Isolation unit. There is more, as I have added 2 x LPS's since the P10 and heard further improvements. One in my Mac Mini and the other in the Rednet. And LPS's as DIY are cheap.

 

[Iving]

   
Based on that same thread I bought a used isolation transformer off of EBAY. It is a low capacitance 1000VA unit. My experience is the same as yours. At first I was just putting my DAC, preamp and D16 on it to good effect. Today I moved my power amp over to it as it is only 10 watts output, plenty for my 99db speakers. The benefit was immediately obvious. Better clarity, dynamics and imaging. Mine came with unterminated end and jumpered as step down so note that if you buy one from EBAY you might be into a bit of DIY with line voltage.
 
I have actually used smaller isolation(1:1) transformers for years but I feel that the big benefit was getting with enough current capacity (and with low capacitance) to move most of my gear onto it.
 
Big bang for the buck!

 
Yes - I daren't add my power amps to the 500VA out. I am going to study the JS thread to try to understand whether another 1, 1.8, 2.4 etc KVA could supply the analogue phase, or whether it would be worth the candle to get a 2.5 or 5 to power everything (leaving the 500VA sadly redundant) - all of course plugged into a single power strip! The 5KVAs weigh half a large human being - and there is the matter of thermal management - and hiding (audibly speaking) hum too. I wonder whether running the PC only from the 500VA (separated signal-wise by ethernet of course) and all left downstream from a larger iso might be the way to go. Thinking cap on. It's difficult to experiment without buying equipment and rewiring every permutation germane. The 500VA required only proper connection at the in and out terminals (info easily available) to change from USA to UK volts. Yes - the SQ enhancement is better than I expected - at least as much as I would have imagined from LPSs. It's now a question of weighing against expense/work/warranty and resale implications the LPS vs SMPS prospect when AC line noise has already been factored out by iso.

 

[Iving]

  Interesting, I can agree on mains noise. I went a different route with a PS Audio P10. It takes the AC sinewave, and converts it to DC then regenerates the AC as clean sinewave. I had 1.3 - 2.8% line distortion and it is now 0.1%. I also had voltage from 226V to 248V and have it set now to 230V exactly. The P10 has a sinewave and a multi wave. I don't fully understand that part. It also has shut down in an outage (no reboot to avoid spikes) has surge and overload protection.
 
I have had it for a year now. Mileage will vary depending on how far your location is away from the mains transformer in the street, and other factors such as commercial premises loading up mains with spikes and garbage. I live in a new build apartment and the transformer is at the end of our street.
 
The sound after the P10 (to the whole system) was a darker background, bigger dynamic, deeper bass and cleaner treble. Everything got cleaner, that is the best way to describe it. The peak performance time on my system before the P10 was about 2am in the morning. I get quite a bit better than that now 24/7. And it upgraded all my gear attached, i.e all my system. And I was worried in Spain as we do have outages, sometimes at 1am and the services company cluelessly try to reboot the grid, it comes on for 30 seconds then off again. Then 2 minutes later on again, then off. Not good for your hifi.
 
Going back to the Rednet LPS mod I did this week, it seems to have settled down. First few hours the bass was sucked out a bit, but I could tell more goodies were coming. Now 3 days in, it has all got better, and the bass has come back - and some. Very fast bass and more textured and tunefull. The other big change on the Rednet is the soudstage, it has got WIDER, a lot wider. The layering has expanded and everything it positioned more 3D, less glued together. It is much easier to take in what is going on. For 130USD this is the best meal ticket I have experienced in hifi so far.
 
Iving, I would press on with any LPS ideas after the Isolation unit. There is more, as I have added 2 x LPS's since the P10 and heard further improvements. One in my Mac Mini and the other in the Rednet. And LPS's as DIY are cheap.

 
I'm not familiar with the P10, and I don't think that this (clean sine wave reconstruction via DC) approach features in the JS thread. But it all demonstrates to me the significant of power management - something I had underappreciated till now. I guess I'll be tempted with LPSs eventually - I have only so much time (and monies) for Hi-Fi! The temptation to upgrade is greater when there is an annoyance in the system - usually digital glare: there is no salient annoyance at this time. I tell myself I don't need to be a fanatic audiophile ("SQ because I can") to get goosebumps - but then I become accustomed to what I've got and get tempted to think that goose bumps will come harder and faster with another upgrade. Do I sound like an addict. I guess I am not alone!

 

[Hifi Boy]

  The sound after the P10 (to the whole system) was a darker background, bigger dynamic, deeper bass and cleaner treble. Everything got cleaner, that is the best way to describe it. The peak performance time on my system before the P10 was about 2am in the morning. I get quite a bit better than that now 24/7. And it upgraded all my gear attached, i.e all my system.

 
This sound very good, especially since I got a P5 coming next week.
I hope to get the same results as you did with this upgrade.
 
Does the Power Plant require any break in time, or will these great effects be noticeable immediately?

 

[astrostar59]

 

  The sound after the P10 (to the whole system) was a darker background, bigger dynamic, deeper bass and cleaner treble. Everything got cleaner, that is the best way to describe it. The peak performance time on my system before the P10 was about 2am in the morning. I get quite a bit better than that now 24/7. And it upgraded all my gear attached, i.e all my system.

 
This sound very good, especially since I got a P5 coming next week.
I hope to get the same results as you did with this upgrade.
 
Does the Power Plant require any break in time, or will these great effects be noticeable immediately?

 

 

 
 
You can see the P10 on the floor left side. It looks cool, and like starship enterprise on a night. I have it set to shut down after an outage, and multi wave on the sine wave setting. Distortion is held at 0.1% from nearly 3% average incoming, and I set it to 230.0V
 
It is silent and hardly warm on the heat sinks. I use about 25% load with my headphone amp on as well as the power amp.
 
You will hear immediate upgrades in SQ. But the soundstage and sub bass will 'ping' in 2-3 weeks on 24/7. I love my P10, it was an odd thing to buy I guess, coz, hey, it doesn't create any music. BUT the noisy mains is a hidden devil. You are not aware of it until you get rid of it.
 
The other thing to look at (cheap) is a separate ring main and trip fuse from the consumer unit. I ran a new ring right to the wall behind the P10. Nothing else is on that line. So spikes from the fridge and washing machine and other gear in your house is separated out. I used fat 45 amp wiring and decent wall plug.
 
Good luck, you will be happy trust me. 

 

[Hifi Boy]

@astrostar59
 
Thanks for letting me know, now I can't wait for it to get here!
Sure, I can wait for 2-3 weeks for the soundstage to widen.
 
That's some nice setup you got there, must have cost a fortune.
 
If you can run all of that wit the P10, then I'm pretty sure I won't have a problem running a simple headphone setup with P5.
 
The reason why I didn't invest in this sooner is precisely the same reason as you: "it doesn't make music".
But it looks like this is probably gonna be the best upgrade I did, since I got the HE-1000.

 

[astrostar59]

  I'm not familiar with the P10, and I don't think that this (clean sine wave reconstruction via DC) approach features in the JS thread.

I am glad you are enjoying your new mains ISO system. On the Rednet, the SMPS creates it's own noise right where it sits, and can even send that down the AC line to other gear.
 
As I understand it, a switch mode power supply has super fast switches that basically click over when the AC goes to the top of the wave i.e. before it goes negative from positive. This action creates an amount of noise, it is the science and can't be avoided. Yes, they put in caps and other 'smoothing' techniques but it is inherently a flawed and budget solution. So even if we sort out the incoming mains, the all important and every sensitive digital circuits are getting polluted with noise anyway. JJ put out measurements showing the SMPS in the Rednet chucked out 30 times more noise than the LPS.
 
All power supplies have issues, either some noise or straying from the correct voltage or flaking pout if the demand for current is rapid or higher tun it can handle.
 
The absolute best power supplies IMO are shunt power supplies and preferably tube regulated. Next down solid state shunt, next down linear power supplies, then battery supplies. Many others below that, but right at the bottom below battery supplies are our dreaded SMPS.
 
I note the top tier DACs at silly money such as the Areas Cerat Kassandre, Audio Note Fifth Element, MSB Select DAC, they all have another the same sized box for just a power supply.
 
Anyway, that is on another planet to the likes of anyone I know in this hobby, but for 130 USD, the little LPS is a MUST HAVE item.

 

[Kaixing]

Hi! I need help with the Rednet 3. I got my rednet 3 working before but today my rednet 3 has no sound suddenly. I set the sample rate to 44.1HZ and connected to DVS and Forssell mada-2. I can find the rednet on the rednet controller 2 and I can ID the rednet 3 but when I play music in WDM mode,the aes activity light is not on at all and no sound. My music is 44.1hz flac file and I am using foobar. Anyone has any idea on where the problem could be?
 

 

[johnjen]

  I am glad you are enjoying your new mains ISO system. On the Rednet, the SMPS creates it's own noise right where it sits, and can even send that down the AC line to other gear.
 
As I understand it, a switch mode power supply has super fast switches that basically click over when the AC goes to the top of the wave i.e. before it goes negative from positive. This action creates an amount of noise, it is the science and can't be avoided. Yes, they put in caps and other 'smoothing' techniques but it is inherently a flawed and budget solution. So even if we sort out the incoming mains, the all important and every sensitive digital circuits are getting polluted with noise anyway. JJ put out measurements showing the SMPS in the Rednet chucked out 30 times more noise than the LPS.
 
All power supplies have issues, either some noise or straying from the correct voltage or flaking pout if the demand for current is rapid or higher tun it can handle.
snip  
Anyway, that is on another planet to the likes of anyone I know in this hobby, but for 130 USD, the little LPS is a MUST HAVE item.

The reason for the wide spread use of SMPS's is cost and size and convenience.
When the mains voltage frequency of 50-60Hz is replaced with a several hundred Hz operating frequency, the primary transformer can be much smaller and more efficient and so, much less costly.
 
Unfortunately this switching behavior creates lots of noise, which spreads out to the associated gear it is connected to, not to mention directly influencing the device it is powering.
 
And supposedly these all digital devices should be 'immune' to this SMPS generated noise, except that we can hear differences.
But how much is due to the direct effect this noise has on the rednet (and other types of digital) boxes we are using vs. how much this added noise contributes to the degradation of the rest of our gear remains unknown at this time.
 
But what is clear is that removing these SMPS's, does yield significant benefits to the capability of our playback systems.
 
A tweakers delight, indeed… 

 
JJ

 

[Hifi Boy]

Well the P5 has finally arrived!





What can I say, except, that this is by far the best investment into my system I've made up till now.
Every single aspect of sound has improved. Soundstage is imense, there are more details, the base is harder and tighter and I would even say that the transient response got better as well. Also, the most important thing for me, is that the sound is just so much smoother now.

For an example, Alabama 3 - Woke up this morning, the base that keeps hitting you throughout this song is just skullcrushingly hard and tight.

Kelly Family - Feel in love with an alien, lets you experience pure music. The intro with the background sounds puts you right in the center of the performance. Right after the into, the solo vocals without much of the instruments to be heard, are beautifully presented and extremely musical.

Soft Jazz - Ain't no Sunshine, at 0:10 when the sax starts with the "ain't no Sunshine ..." Part. This sound is so smooth and so enjoyable it makes me want to move and makes me want to dance. Slowly and gently, and I don't even dance! Again, the beautiful sad at 2:17, simply makes me close my eyes and makes me want to hold on to something or someone..

Moving onto the soundstage, Travis - Sing, the whole piece, but especially the chorus, simply put you in a field, an endless field of sound. I could honestly see the immense fields of sound which were all around me moving through me flowing beautifully. It is as if the sound is flowing through me and as its flows, I am being carried away along with it.

Also, let us not forget Nils Lofgren - Keith Don't go. The beginning of this piece, with the solo guitar is beautifully airy. The imaging of each string is pin point accurate. I could see Nils' fingers on each and every string as he plucks away. Masterful and beautiful at the same time!

Again, what can I say, I have never experienced so many different emotions while listening to music. My experiences with hifi systems could always only be described as great in a certain aspects, as in either the soundstage, the speed or musicality and this invoking only one emotion from the music, but never has it moved me on so many levels as it has now.

So, will the sound improve after 2-3 weeks, I do not know and honestly at this point, I do not really care. This is the best setup I've heard to date and no system should go without a good power supply. Highly recommended upgrade if you can afford it!

 

[astrostar59]

Well the P5 has finally arrived!
 

Ha Ha, told you. Nice one, and enjoy the new (clean) power supply to your hifi system.
 
Yes, it will keep improving. I think 3-4 weeks before it reaches it's absolute best level.
 
I have mine set to Multiwave, and to NOT reboot after an outage, to protect my gear I leave on 24/7.
 
The P5 and P10 are not cheap I guess, maybe as much as a decent DAC, but until you get one in, it isn't apparent how much mains pollution is messing with the sound.
 
Good luck Hifi Boy.

 

[Hifi Boy]

Yes, you most certainly did tell me so, but I could not have imagined that it will be this much of a difference.

I have mine set to Sine, I guess I should try to set it to Multi like you did, but have no idea what difference that would make. Oh well, guess it's time to experiment further!

Anyway, I just moved my system to a new apartment when the P5 came and as you might have noticed from the pics, I took them in the dark. Basically I didn't even bother to plug in a light bulb in my new apartment because I just couldn't tear myself away from the music! I spent 4 hours lying on the rug till 1AM listening to this thing and only then did I decide to go back to the old apartment and sleep on the bed.

Also, you know when you buy a new addition to your system and you're happy with how it sounds and you don't have that urge for at least a couple of months to buy something new? Well, this thing had the opposite effect on me, it actually made me want to upgrade more!

This hobby of ours can be quite addictive.

 

[astrostar59]

Also, you know when you buy a new addition to your system and you're happy with how it sounds and you don't have that urge for at least a couple of months to buy something new? Well, this thing had the opposite effect on me, it actually made me want to upgrade more!

This hobby of ours can be quite addictive.

I agree. My theory for digital audio right now, is there are big gains to be had (grabbed) in the new influx of cheap discrete DACs coming out of China and Korea. They seem to be well engineered and 1/4 the price of European designs. I am going to investigate further, but I think right now is a good time to explore the R-2R DAC sector as it is much more affordable than previously. I have no idea if they are equal to the 10K european designs, but if they are close, it is great news for digital replay.
 
Also, IMO there are big gains in mains regeneration as discussed above, but also Linear Power supplies feeding all audio gear on SMPS. I had done my whole system now and the upgrade in SQ is immense.
 
Both of the above are 'affordable' upgrades to most audio fans. We are not talking 20K plus for a DAC or amplifier here.

 

[Hifi Boy]

Absolutely agree with you there.
 
No need to spend crazy money on DACs anymore seeing as how the Chinese an Korean ones will suffice.
Any reasonably well off audiophile today can have a pretty good system for much less than $20K, as you've put it.
 
I sure do hope you get one of those R2R DACs, would be great if you could report back on the performance.
 
My current opinion is that once you've managed to make the largest investment into a good power supply, you're ready to go. The Amp/DAC (Fostex HP-A4BL) which I had previously, which was quite good, cost me around $450. My current amp, Elekit TU-8200, with all the upgrades, cost me around $1500. The only thing after that you should get is a pair of good headphones and you're set. Assuming you get yourself HD800 or LCD3 (second hand), you won't have to spend a lot.
 
This is nowhere near $20K like people used to pay before!
 
Anyway, the only thing I'm now wondering about are power cords. Every single power cord I have now is the stock one. Do you have any experience with after market ones, and how much sound improvement do you think replacing all my current cables would get me?

 

[astrostar59]

  Anyway, the only thing I'm now wondering about are power cords. Every single power cord I have now is the stock one. Do you have any experience with after market ones, and how much sound improvement do you think replacing all my current cables would get me?

I use Belkin mans cable bought at hificollective. I have short runs, so not so worried about the mains cable TBH, as long as it is nice and thick (high amp capacity) and you use medical or audio wall plugs. And I use Furatech IEC midrange plugs. Also try and get a dedicated mains line to your gear back to the consumer unit.
 
I did get decent interconnects though, silver with good RCA plugs. Don't forget to get hifi fuses such as the AMR ones.
 
Good luck.