AUDIO over IP - REDNET 3 & 16 Review. AES67 Sets A New Standard for Computer Audio

[rb2013]

  Nice! Glad I could help you out! Another device you could try (in-theory) would be an external USB HDD. You could get the space you are looking for in a much cheaper price point going that route.
 
- InsanityOne

 

Oh yeah!  That PNY USB 3.0 256GB stick works great - and sounds even better then that old 8gb one.
 
And using a USB3.0 port loading a few hundred albums will go much faster.  Really liking this.

 

[artur9]

   
I do believe USB can be made very good - but it takes hero measures - even then a simple chain PC>DANTE>DAC beats it.

I've read the thread but the MicroRendu and SMS-200 are very similar so I was wondering why you slammed one but not the other.
 
So, say you got a nice NUC and put windows on it to feed into  VSC.  How would you control playback (pause, rewind, etc)?  You do not use Roon, you said?  I don't want a keyboard attached to the NUC.  I suppose Jriver/JRemote? (don't like it, personally).
 
In other words, I do not want to be sitting at a computer to control my playlists etc and I do not consider remote desktop a suitable solution.
 
Not intending to be feisty here but I realize it can be read that way.  Just wondering how people using AOIP are controlling playback.

 

[panhead]

  Well reading all over there is much about a 'scam' on these USB2.0 flash drives - so what is a legit max USB for under $100?
 
So here is a Sandisk (doubt these are a 'scam') 256GB for $69.  Maybe that is more realistic?
 
The effect of the SQ is the same - and with time the prices will fall on high capacity USB drives.
 
The lowest cost 128GB on NewEgg is $15.99 - I assume this is not a scam drive - but legit.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIAAWB4D02916&cm_re=usb_drive-_-9SIAAWB4D02916-_-Product
 
I'll order one of these.
 
Thanks for the tip-off!
 
PS - What's this world coming to?  Who'd think that Amazon and Ebay would have fraudulent Chinese sellers??

 
Will have to wait for Moore's Law to work a few more iterations...for $12 2 TB USB flash drives.

Newegg is owned by the Chinese now....

 

[patrikh]

Excuse me but how does a usb stick "sound" good?!?

 

[haywood]

Excuse me but how does a usb stick "sound" good?!?

The theory is something like faster drives generate more rf / electrical noise. It's the same general idea about moving to devices like microrendu and raspberry.pi that are low-power and have a dedicated operating system.

 

[motberg]

 
Well I want to elminiate any spinning HD - even a SSD would have to have external power.  These USB sticks are perfect.  I suppose a TB PCIe ext SSD enclosure would be nice to try - they aren't cheap.  And I'd need another LPS.  If this experiment pans out - I will get a better 24VDC LPS for the Startech REX.  This will do double duty - USB GI and PN filter and solid state external drive.
 
Just got back from Bestbuy to give a listen with the PNY.

This is getting to be a cool idea, I hope the SQ experiments are positive...
there may be a SQ benefit to the 3 smaller USB sticks anyways over a larger SSD or something....
(.....funny that the LANRover did not maintain some similar option in its design...)
 
Do you know the working voltage range for the REX ?
TIA !

 

[rb2013]

  I've read the thread but the MicroRendu and SMS-200 are very similar so I was wondering why you slammed one but not the other.
 
So, say you got a nice NUC and put windows on it to feed into  VSC.  How would you control playback (pause, rewind, etc)?  You do not use Roon, you said?  I don't want a keyboard attached to the NUC.  I suppose Jriver/JRemote? (don't like it, personally).
 
In other words, I do not want to be sitting at a computer to control my playlists etc and I do not consider remote desktop a suitable solution.
 
Not intending to be feisty here but I realize it can be read that way.  Just wondering how people using AOIP are controlling playback.

Well I have not heard anyone compare the SMS-200 to the REDNET - so no comment there.
 
I use Foobar and love it.  The SQ is outstanding - and with a Redbook collection near 3000 CDs and add to that a few hundred LP's, SACD, DVD-A's digitalized.  A pure graphic interface would be to cumbersome.  Some of my playlists are over 5000 tracks.  With Foobar I can find any track on any album in seconds.  Build a playlist with any artist - like say Van Morrison (with over 30+ albums in seconds, a playlist with every classical album (all alphabetized)) in seconds.  And then search those playlists by scroll or search - again in seconds.
 
This:

 
Versus this:

 
If I want liner notes while listening or a singer's bio - I have an Asus tablet and Wiki - with hyperlinks all over the place.
 
But if Roon works for you (and you are paying the annual $120 fee or the upfront $500 fee) - then great - it's completely compatible with DANTE DVS.
 
Can you say the same for the microrendu and SMS-200 for Foobar or JRMC.
 
Note on the webpage for the $600 fanless music server with built in LPS - which you originally asked "Why would you want that?"  there is this posted:

12. Supports Microsoft Remote Desktop and Foobar2000 Mobile Control APP. Remote Controlled by Your PC, Android and iOS Devices in the same network.​

 

 

[rb2013]

  Newegg is owned by the Chinese now....

Yeah  - I saw those other seller links on a search.  So sad - was a great go to place for info and computer gear.

 

[rb2013]

  Excuse me but how does a usb stick "sound" good?!?

Good question - well at least for now in my office system - as I haven't yet had time to move it into my main system.  But doing direct A/B comparison from SATA WD Black drive with El Fidelity SATA filter and low noise and high PSRR - fanless Seasonic PS - i immediately heard a greater ease and musicality to the music.  An increased clarity and dynamics was the second thing I noticed.  The sound become tonally richer and more vibrant.
 
Now for my 'guess' as to the technical explanation - I don't know how familiar you are with the issues of PC USB and SATA galvanic isolation and noise.  Or the issues of USB 'packet noise'- I won't go into that here in depth - but just to say much has been posted about these issues.  Now it's not much a secret that even a well designed LPS driven PC or MAC music server is a very noisy place.  The massive CPU processors and MB chipsets put out noise, and I'm sure EMI - but on the MB a highly contaminated ground plane.  Does this noise in some way create audio playback issues with digital files during the critical read transition - from solid state to electrical (or magnetic pulses to electrical signals)?  Seems they would be impervious to any issues - but that's what we were told about USB audio in the beginning.
 
In fact the very beginning of digital music - that every CD player would produce 'perfect' music.  Not like those nasty turntables...Ha!
http://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/computer-audio-misconceptions/
 
Anyway the Startech GB LAN USB extender acts to provide galvanic isolation from the PC's ground plane - and supply a separate clean linear power supply.  The critical read phase of the digital bit stream creation would be much less effected by these noise issues.  Once the digital music bit stream has crossed the GI barrier it is recreated with higher signal integrity USB stream then that would occur inside a PC - this is then streamed to the CPU for processing and passed back out to the GI barrier - again the IP to USB packet translation occurs - again galvanically isolated from the PC and this bitstream is passed through to the XMOS processor.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQjJke5uM2g

 

[artur9]

   
I use Foobar and love it.  The SQ is outstanding - and with a Redbook collection near 3000 CDs and add to that a few hundred LP's, SACD, DVD-A's digitalized.  
 
 
...
 
But if Roon works for you (and you are paying the annual $120 fee or the upfront $500 fee) - then great - it's completely compatible with DANTE DVS.

Thanks for a great answer.  I see where you are coming from now.  No fan of Roon here.

 

[Iving]

Just wondering how people using AOIP are controlling playback.

 

In praise of foobar2000
 
I love foobar aka foobar2000 aka fb2k.
I love it for its simplicity.
All I want to do is play music I already own, and listen to that music undistracted.
The Filter tool is awesome for playing what I want and creating playlists for the occasion
... in a heartbeat - since I have my Library all tagged up the way I want it.
I disable Album Art even in fb2k.
I mean - what's the point?
A vinyl record (with its correct inner sleeve) is one thing.
Playing it on a turntable is ritualistic like smoking a cigarette.
(Which I gave up 12 years ago I hasten to add.)
With a cigarette you know you've got a lit one somewhere till you put it out.
(Unless you want to barbecue yourself and your family.)
Same thing with a record.
It spins till you turn it off.
And then if you care at all for it you must put the record away in its correct sleeve.
So Album Art means something if we are talking about LPs.
I would recognise any of my Album covers if I saw the same one somewhere else in the world.
I have a brain component that lets me do that - like everyone can recognise familiar faces.
(The loss of the capacity to recognise faces is "prosopagnosia". I would hate to have "lp-art-agnosia".)
But after 1980 and the advent of digits and CDs, the meaning of Album Art was lost to its rightful place in history - 1955-ish to 1980-ish.
So given that in fb2k I am listening to digits, what is the point of Album Art.
Anyway - it only gives the computer something else to do  - a load which every audiophile knows is a menace.
And another "anyway" - what is the meaningful Album Art for a live and obscure classical performance - say.
I already know most of what I want to know about Artists and Music History - but I think about these things often and look them up all the time.
Doing so can create the desire to listen to something in particular.
So I take my brain with me to the Hi-Fi.
When I met my wife her bank account was riddled with Direct Debits and Standing Orders
because she loved salesmen coming to the door.
fb2k costs nothing.
And lets you think for yourself.
Now she is much happier.
And has more money for her other love (other than me that is) - the garden.
 

 

[Iving]

Will have to wait for Moore's Law to work a few more iterations...for $12 2 TB USB flash drives.

 

Within a year or two many of us we will be playing our (computer) music off of U.2 (formerly SFF-8639) drives connected directly to our mobos. The PC's credentials are vital.

 

[Iving]

  The PC *does* make a difference.
 
(iii) The new machine is a silent (no moving parts) PC comprising:
- Gigabyte GA-X170-EXTREME ECC Thunderbolt™ 3 Certified C236 Chipset Motherboard;
- Intel Core i7 6700 Skylake CPU;
- Corsair 16GB Vengeance LPX DDR4 2400MHz RAM;
- Windows 10 Pro on Samsung SM951 128GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD;
- *.flac on Samsung 850 EVO 1TB 2.5" SATA SSD;
- (choice of) Dual LAN (Killer™ E2400 and Intel®);
- fanless "0dB" 400W PSU (being replaced shortly actually because of coil whine).
I am using the Killer vs. Intel NIC because by comparison it has demonstrably lower latency - see http://techreport.com/review/29144/revisiting-the-killer-nic-eight-years-on/2.
 
what we (audiophiles) call PRaT is in a different league altogether. It is as if an adept and eager conductor stands before your artist ensuring tempo; or, as if @rb2013 had returned with yet a newer device having served an internship at NIST (https://www.wired.com/2014/04/nist-atomic-clock/).  
The musical elevation because of enhanced PRaT is very significant.
 
Latency through the Killer NIC is rock fast at <1ms unwavering mean.
 
Thunderbolt 3 ready too ...

 
Quote:

   
 
I have had to swap the PSU from Seasonic 400fl because of coil whine (found on >1 instance) to Aurum AU 500 Gold (very nicely silent)
and
the mobo from Gigabyte GA-X170-EXTREME ECC because of mysterious screeching around the CPU (6700) area [voltage regulation circuitry?] to ASUS Z170 Premium (more expensive but a way to keep Thunderbolt 3). The latter has two different Intel NICs but not the Killer E2400.
 
When I get the machine back I'll report on any changes. I have asserted that an up-to-date competent PC with specs such as these (vs. a basic laptop or a good W10 tablet with Docking Station) raises SQ by as much as going from USB to AOIP.

 
Update: The ASUS Z170 Premium was quiet but had "connectivity" problems with Thunderbolt 3 ("when a thunderbolt device is connected to the system the devices are not receiving power and therefore are not being recognised in Windows" x 2 instances). The engineers are still waiting for a reply from Asus about it. The final replacement is a Gigabyte Z170X Designare which I am told is behaving itself. It has 2 x Intel NICs and 2 x USB C / Thunderbolt 3 ports as well as M.2 and U.2 on board (Windows 10 Pro is on a dedicated M.2). The RAM is upgraded to Dominator 2666 MHz.
 
With a following wind I will have the machine within a day or two. I don't expect ever to use the "teaming" capacity of the two Intel NICs (although I dare say one day I will experiment), but I do hope that the Killer NIC wasn't a necessary ingredient in the stupendous SQ enjoyed previously. The PC I am told is super-quiet now. I am really looking forward to its homecoming.

 

[ccschua]

i believe LPS for the PC is important. I am sure even with AOIP you will still hear a difference. like someone just use 2012 R2 for audio.

 

[rb2013]

  Thanks for a great answer.  I see where you are coming from now.  No fan of Roon here.

Music players, at least for me, come down to convenience, stability, flexibility, and of course SQ.  Appearance is somewhat important for me, but not the highest priority.
 
But this of course this is highly personal.