[anetode]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwoTrack /img/forum/go_quote.gif Forgive me. I left off the response to Lavry. I believe Lavry has changed his views since 2004 and there are now editing tools that do with in 24/192 and 24/176 now so that is dated. As well there is new research that suggests harmonic overtones from extreme HF impact the audible band. I will try to find a paper. I believe Keith Howard has done some work in this area.

Lavry's point in that article is that all you need to perfectly encode audio is the 20-20,000 signal and sufficient headroom for noise-shaping. His preference for the maximum encoding frequency is somewhere around 60khz, far less than the 96 or 192 pushed by proponents of high-rez recording. I agree that there is an advantage to using 24/96 (& up) from a signal processing point of view, especially in recording projects like those you've described. However, on the playback end, a well-mixed/mastered 16/44.1 recording is enough to satisfy the practical limits of perception. As for perception as a neurological construct, we've still some ways to go. I've read some interesting studies on neuroplasticity and musicianship that indicate significant differences in how people respond to music beyond the specifics of physical reproduction of waveforms. Needless to say, cables et al. aren't relevant in interpreting this research.

 

[Bmac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwoTrack /img/forum/go_quote.gif You have to keep in mind that that power cord is the first thing the amp "sees". It's all a matter of perspective. What about RFI and EMI shielding? Those have a real impact on sound quality. In my experience a good power conditioner also helps sound quality. Why would that be the case if equipment had really high build quality? I might also add that I notice a substantial difference with power cord upgrades on digital gear and I'm usually playing with the good stuff...Sony, Wadia, Oppo, and Benchmark.

I am also using "the good stuff" and own a DAC-1 PRE, Oppo BDP-83 too among other stuff.

This is probably not the answer you want to hear, but the power cord, the power conditioner, EMI and RFI will make absolutely no difference on well-designed digital gear. Not my words but those of Elias Gwinn who is one of the 2 engineers at Benchmark. They have measured and done DBT with the DAC-1, and none of the previous variables will make any difference with the DAC-1.

From the horses mouth:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/be...ml#post4921419

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/be...ml#post4921715

So your own personal experience in this instance contradicts that of the engineers who have designed, built and tested this equipment using precise testing equipment and double-blind listening. How can you reconcile this difference, and how can you be certain that the rest of your experience is also not just based on what in this case at least would appear to be the placebo effect?

 

[anetode]

Indeed, we're lucky to get respected engineers like Gwinn and Lavry to comment on these forums, if only to field technical questions in the context of using their products

Not that their testimony will make a dent in the business of providing solutions to non-existent problems.

 

[TwoTrack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bmac /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am also using "the good stuff" and own a DAC-1 PRE, Oppo BDP-83 too among other stuff. This is probably not the answer you want to hear, but the power cord, the power conditioner, EMI and RFI will make absolutely no difference on well-designed digital gear. Not my words but those of Elias Gwinn who is one of the 2 engineers at Benchmark. They have measured and done DBT with the DAC-1, and none of the previous variables will make any difference with the DAC-1. From the horses mouth: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/be...ml#post4921419 http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/be...ml#post4921715 So your own personal experience in this instance contradicts that of the engineers who have designed, built and tested this equipment using precise testing equipment and double-blind listening. How can you reconcile this difference, and how can you be certain that the rest of your experience is also not just based on what in this case at least would appear to be the placebo effect?

Elias is commenting on his own gear. He makes no judgments on other gear.

I know from experience that AC cords make a difference. It's really clear on SACD and CD players. It is also true on my Oppo 980H.

For our recordings we solved it completely when we went to battery power.

 

[TwoTrack]

Also, I would like to know why people believe Elias is not hearing things. Did Elias Gwinn do a DBT test? What was his methodology? Was it sighted? What were the results?

Also, if Elias is right because he is an authority (and I'm a Benchmark fan - we have an ADC1 and DAC1 in our inventory and used them for a few years-good sound) why isn't Bob Stuart also an authority on hirez and his opinion on 16/44.1 not being sufficient given some credit?

 

[bordins]

Thanks. It is a must-see video for audiophiles !!

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwoTrack /img/forum/go_quote.gif Also, I would like to know why people believe Elias is not hearing things. Did Elias Gwinn do a DBT test? What was his methodology? Was it sighted? What were the results?

These are valid questions, I wonder if Elias Gwinn is watching this thread, someone should ask him these questions...

 

[DayoftheGreek]

Reading comprehension answers many questions:

Quote:

They have measured and done DBT with the DAC-1, and none of the previous variables will make any difference with the DAC-1.

I also find it funny that you ask for things that have been asked (and been proved nonexistent) from your own links. What is different about this that warrants these questions?

As a graduating electrical engineering senior, I can put my degree on the fact that filtering out noise and power fluctuation is a pretty simple and common task. Any sophomore can replicate this as pretty much everyone takes takes a class involving power supply design. Audio makes this even simpler because the bandwidth is so small (assuming that >20k is negligible, this is also debated though, so we will worry about this later).

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DayoftheGreek /img/forum/go_quote.gif Reading comprehension answers many questions: Quote: They have measured and done DBT with the DAC-1, and none of the previous variables will make any difference with the DAC-1.

At no point in Elias Gwinn's 2 cited posts does he mention DBT, in fact he merely states no detectable difference without elaborating how it was tested i.e whether it was measured or listening tested. Personally I would doubt that cables could make any difference but in the spirit of fairness both sides need to be held to the same level of evidence...

 

[DayoftheGreek]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nick_charles /img/forum/go_quote.gif At no point in Elias Gwinn's 2 cited posts does he mention DBT, in fact he merely states no detectable difference without elaborating how it was tested i.e whether it was measured or listening tested. Personally I would doubt that cables could make any difference but in the spirit of fairness both sides need to be held to the same level of evidence...

So when have we held TwoTrack to this level of evidence?

 

[Uncle Erik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwoTrack /img/forum/go_quote.gif I know from experience that AC cords make a difference. It's really clear on SACD and CD players. It is also true on my Oppo 980H.

How do you know? From sighted listening tests? Those have a sneaky way of always confirming expectations.

If power cords make a difference when recording, you should be able to record the same sound twice (e.g. something played from a recording on a speaker) using different power cords and then lay the waveforms over each other on the computer.

That would show, conclusively, that there is a difference.

But I still don't see how a power cord could affect a well designed power supply. Also, most proponents assume that power is always bad. What if it isn't? If the power is already clean, then why would a power cord "improve" that? Further, did you make any study of the power coming from the wall in the first place?

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DayoftheGreek /img/forum/go_quote.gif So when have we held TwoTrack to this level of evidence?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bmac /img/forum/go_quote.gif This video proves nothing. So his cable makes a different graph than the other cable, which as far as we know could have been made from tin. It also doesn't show how this different cable could affect the sound of any reasonably well-engineered piece of audio equipment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shike /img/forum/go_quote.gif You don't have to be a scientist to test this, but you have to be willing. Something you obviously are not at this point. No controls means you're speaking from opinion and not a place of fact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by terriblepaulz /img/forum/go_quote.gif This paragraph seems to encapsulate some problems with your position, TwoTrack. You cite your listening experience as evidence of something other than a description of a discrete neurochemical event. Finally, there is a reference to scientific tests without citation. I won't belabor the point, but on the Sound Science forum, that should earn a rhetorical slap upside the head.

Quote:

Originally Posted by n3rdling /img/forum/go_quote.gif Nobody here is against listening tests as long as they're scientific tests. You have not provided a single example in your 3000 years in audio as a valid scientific test. Buying two different cables and switching them yourself and trying to hear differences is not a scientific test..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shike /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's great and all, but none of your "experience" is scientific . . . they're "listening impressions" at best. You do realize this is the "sound science" sub-forum right? Just double checking . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shike /img/forum/go_quote.gif You're the one making the claim of differences existing, therefore burden of proof lies upon you.

How do you know? From sighted listening tests? Those have a sneaky way of always confirming expectations.

 

[DayoftheGreek]

Well I stand corrected. The poster in question did not actually mention the DBT in his test. I am also curious as this answer. Pardon me. I will not let this happen again if I can do better.

 

[Shark_Jump]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nick_charles /img/forum/go_quote.gif At no point in Elias Gwinn's 2 cited posts does he mention DBT, in fact he merely states no detectable difference without elaborating how it was tested i.e whether it was measured or listening tested. Personally I would doubt that cables could make any difference but in the spirit of fairness both sides need to be held to the same level of evidence...

Hang on, isn't there is huge difference here?

The only motivation that I can possibly imagine for the Benchmark engineer to say that specialised power chords make no difference with their equipment, is to educate the customers. On this fact alone I could take what they said on face value.

Alternatively if someone tries to sell me me a power chord for $300, and tells me there is a significant improvement in sound quality. I would have to petty dumb to take what they said on face value without some hard evidence.

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shark_Jump /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hang on, isn't there is huge difference here? The only motivation that I can possibly imagine for the Benchmark engineer to say that specialised power chords make no difference with their equipment, is to educate the customers. On this fact alone I could take what they said on face value. Alternatively if someone tries to sell me me a power chord for $300, and tells me there is a significant improvement in sound quality. I would have to petty dumb to take what they said on face value without some hard evidence.

Their motivation only betokens their integrity, it does not make casual listening into rigorous testing, that they sincerely believe something does not make it true and vice versa of course...

I am not defending power cable exotica in any way, I remain skeptical , but if they (Benchmark) make a definitive no difference statement that is not just a matter of theory but empirical then they need to show similarly strong evidence.