Audio-gd Reference 7 Loaner Program (USA)

[Yikes]

I'm wrapping up my evaluations. I'm probably going to ship to Jude mid-week, that is if he ever sends me his address.

 

[Yikes]

I've completed my listening, boxed and almost shipped the DAC. I missed the FedEx cutoff so the unit will be shipping to Jude tomorrow.
 
My previous description of the sound held true through all of my listening sessions. The REF 7 does best my modified music Hall 25.2 in every area except Soundstaging. Whereas the PS Audio PWD (with or without the Network Bridge) bests the REF 7 in every performance area except for very deep bass slam (I thought the REF 7 sounded slightly exaggerated in the DEEP BASS).
 
The REF 7 is the best sub $2000 (Retail) DAC that I've heard. That being said IMHO the PWD is worth the extra $ for its performance (Small but noticeable) improvement alone. Throw in the much richer feature set and I think the PWD is well worth the price premium.
 
If your budget is $2000 and you want to buy new I Strongly recommend the REF 7. It's a bargain, but don't delude yourself into thinking that you are getting a DAC that matches the very best price no object DAC's (EMM, Esoteric (Some not all), DCS (taste dependent), Zanden, etc. My PWD is at least a step below such world class DAC's and at least to my ears the REF 7 is a small step behind it.
 
YMMV

 

[IPodPJ]

Yikes,
Did you ever get the v5 DSP-1 module?

 

[Yikes]

Quote:

Yikes,
Did you ever get the v5 DSP-1 module?

 
No, although others that have have not reported the Huge improvements that you have. So I have no idea how significant the improvement the v5 DSP would make. Just add being able to update the firmware across the Internet (or a USB memory stick) as another positive of the PWD.
 
There was a delay in shipping the chip from Audio-gd, so rather than totally screwing the schedule I told them to ship it to Jude.
 

 

[IPodPJ]

Actually the few people that do have the upgrade have said it was a significant improvement, including Kingwa himself.  Considering that's what is shipping with the current Ref-7 now it makes sense to upgrade the module before anyone else reviews it since that's not what they would receive should they choose to buy one.  Perhaps Jude will install the new one.
 
But either way, thanks for the reviews.

 

[tisb0b]

Kingwa is in the business of selling products to audiophiles it is a given that he will say it is a significant improvement. 
 
Quote:

Actually the few people that do have the upgrade have said it was a significant improvement, including Kingwa himself.

 

[lmswjm]

Quote:

Kingwa is in the business of selling products to audiophiles it is a given that he will say it is a significant improvement. 
 

 

I have found nothing but honest answers from Kingwa. I've communicated directly with him about "upgrading" my CD7 and Ref 1 to his current flagship choices. He described the differences in sound without claiming they were better. He never tries to sell his products, if anything he undersells. I believe he wants the sound of his products to "do the talking" for him. Notice that there are no Audio-GD ads here on Head-Fi. When I first contacted him about purchasing the CD7/Ref 1/Phoenix chain. He suggested I try one product first before taking a bigger plunge. If you have any specifics that back your claim, I'd be interested to hear about it.

 

[les_garten]

Quote:

/img/forum/go_quote.gif




I have found nothing but honest answers from Kingwa. I've communicated directly with him about "upgrading" my CD7 and Ref 1 to his current flagship choices. He described the differences in sound without claiming they were better. He never tries to sell his products, if anything he undersells. I believe he wants the sound of his products to "do the talking" for him. Notice that there are no Audio-GD ads here on Head-Fi. When I first contacted him about purchasing the CD7/Ref 1/Phoenix chain. He suggested I try one product first before taking a bigger plunge. If you have any specifics that back your claim, I'd be interested to hear about it.

 
 
 
 
 
That has been my experience with him as well. 
 
I've had other people contact me and tell me, "he sounds like he is trying to talk them out of buying his gear, what's up with that."
 
He also warns heavily usually about how "neutral" his gear is and do you like neutral?
 
Which was strange to me that Yikes thought it had a bass emphasis.
 
I think his gear is very revealing.  If you feed it a sibilant recording, don't cry because it is sibilant!
 
My initial experience was that it(REF1 + Phoenix) was too neutral and lifeless.
 
Took a few days of listening to reveal/realize that it was inky black silent, and non-strident and that the details are revealed without any hint of harshness.  Then it was easy to just set back and enjoy it and marvel in how effortless it does it's job. 
 

 

[Yikes]

 
 
 
 
 
Which was strange to me that Yikes thought it had a bass emphasis. 
 

I did say " the REF 7 sounded slightly exaggerated in the DEEP BASS" - remember my speakers have significantly deeper bass output than most, if I remember correctly -3db is 18 hz. I'd say that the emphasized region was in the less than 25 hz area (guesstimate), and it was "slightly"

 

[SP Wild]

So the REF7 has a "slightly" exaggerated deep bass between 20-25hz and you "heard" this?  If your speakers are -3db at 18hz than this means what you "heard" should be more correct to absolute reference.

 

[Yikes]

I compared the Ref 7 to two DAC's and one Universal player and the differences were similar for all, but as I said it was primarily compared to my PWD. To my ear the PWD is more neutral, both are very neutral but the REF 7 sounded exaggerated (slightly) in the deep bass. While none of my other sources exhibit this same emphasis.

 

[tisb0b]

I just find it to be very weak justification that because Kingwa claimed there was a 'significant improvement' then it must be true. Aren't all of us here a much more cynical bunch? Ultimately Kingwa is out to make money by selling his products if he wasn't then audio-gd would not exist. The fact that there are no ads just indicates that word of mouth advertising is garnering him enough business.
 
Quote:

I have found nothing but honest answers from Kingwa. I've communicated directly with him about "upgrading" my CD7 and Ref 1 to his current flagship choices. He described the differences in sound without claiming they were better. He never tries to sell his products, if anything he undersells. I believe he wants the sound of his products to "do the talking" for him. Notice that there are no Audio-GD ads here on Head-Fi. When I first contacted him about purchasing the CD7/Ref 1/Phoenix chain. He suggested I try one product first before taking a bigger plunge. If you have any specifics that back your claim, I'd be interested to hear about it.

 

[jjinh]

Quote:

I just find it to be very weak justification that because Kingwa claimed there was a 'significant improvement' then it must be true. Aren't all of us here a much more cynical bunch? Ultimately Kingwa is out to make money by selling his products if he wasn't then audio-gd would not exist. The fact that there are no ads just indicates that word of mouth advertising is garnering him enough business.
 

 
I've only got good things to say about Kingwa and Audio-gd, but I'm not sure how we quantify/classify something as significant in a subjective hobby such as audio; what I refer to as a significant improvement may not be significant to the next person and vice versa.

 

[Currawong]

Personally, I can't help wondering what the result would be if a Ref 7 were built in the manner of some of Pricklely Peete's mods to his Reference 1, where he upgraded most of the capacitors.
 
I have just gone from a V1 DSP to the V5 and there is a significant difference IMO, granted that I can't do an A/B comparison to be 100% sure and I never had the V4.  However, the idea is to see how Audio-gd's best competes with serious brand-name gear with help from experienced Head-fiers, so in that I think we're we're doing well so far, even if the first two reviewers have been arguably a bit short on words.

 

[les_garten]

 
Quote:

Quote:Originally Posted by tisb0b /img/forum/go_quote.gif

I just find it to be very weak justification that because Kingwa claimed there was a 'significant improvement' then it must be true. Aren't all of us here a much more cynical bunch? Ultimately Kingwa is out to make money by selling his products if he wasn't then audio-gd would not exist. The fact that there are no ads just indicates that word of mouth advertising is garnering him enough business.
 

 
 
 
 
I'll just point out a few things.
 
1) He is in the Audio business selling gear, that's true.
 
2) I've seen him mention to 4 or 5 people to make sure they liked neutral gear or not buy his stuff.  I've never seen Vendors discourage people before.
 
3) If you read in the FUN or the Sparrow thread, there was a question from someone who didn't know which one to buy, He said the Sparrow had the same quality as the FUN, just the additional ability to swap modules. There's a considerable difference in the price, so I don't know any other vendors that wouldn't at least say there was a slight increase in SQ.  And we know what we'll pay for a slight increase in SQ, ehhh?  This very thread shows that in Yikes posts.
 
4) I find it hard to believe that he would concoct this DSP upgrade program to make a few bucks if there wasn't some true benefit from it.
 
5) Anyone who has ever dealt with him in correspondence has any thoughts of dishonesty assuaged in short order.
 
So in closing, I would say you are the one with a deficit of evidence here.  I'm a born skeptic, as most know here, so that's where I'm coming from.
 
He is very cognizant that word of mouth is where his bread is buttered.  There is a lot of Snake-Oil in this business, but he ain't one of them.  You are of course entitled to your own skepticism, and it's a healthy thing, but if you read the A-GD threads, you'll learn that "this is no Humbug!"