[ItsAllInMyHead]

Very interesting indeed. This implies that OS mode eliminates the DSD noise, although I have zero DSD noise on my R-28 in NOS 3 mode. Still, a welcome development.

I don't believe that is what he is implying or is implied.

Filtering for DSD (when applicable) is done differently than for PCM. On his DACs, DSD, is processed natively vs. converted to PCM prior to conversion. The DACs have a separate DSD "section". When the FPGA detects a DSD signal it routes the signal appropriately. The user-selectable filter options / NOS / OS etc. only apply to PCM.

I did not want to jump to any conclusions, so I confirmed this with Kingwa and asked...

May I have your permission to post to Head-Fi that on the R-1 and the R-8
"No user changes to NOS or OS on the front panel affect DSD. The options only apply to PCM"

He confirmed.

Those are DACs I am most familiar with and own (along with the R2R-11) from Audio-GD. With all the firmware updates etc, I can't keep track of all the models etc, but I would assume this applies to you since the DAC section of the R-28 is very similar to the R-1, if not identical. So in short, when you're listening to DSD it does not (should not) matter what "mode" you're in. Moving to OS from NOS won't/shouldn't affect it at all. Also, your R-28 should not have the "issue" that the R2R-11 has. So, the fact that you heard no noise makes sense. I believe that is isolated to the R2R-11, but I can't confirm. Personally, the only unit I have any slight issue with DSD noise on is with the R2R-11. I haven't read back through the thread to see if others have experienced similar issues with other DACs. I saw one person request files to share across users and compare / replicate the issue, and that is a very wise route to go, IMO.

Note - my personal issue with my R2R-11 is a very low-level noise during DSD playback. This is separate from the "screech" upon switching to DSD from PCM which was happening with all my Audio-GD DACs. In my own case, I've narrowed / and eliminated the "screech" completely. For the low-level noise with the R2R-11 - since I got my unit so close to the switchover date, Kingwa said he'd upgrade it for me. I don't have a ton of DSD, nor do I convert / upsample in software to DSD, so it's not a big deal to me. But since he'll fix it, why not? I did not get into the details with him re: the hardware change (it's hardware not firmware), but he said it would take about an hour if I bring it to him.

tl;dr version
All my units (R2R-11, R-1, R-8) had/have a "screech" if my first track was a DSD track. This is gone or mitigated in my case. It was related to software device initiation from Audirvana (Mac) direct to DAC with USB. Solved with Singxer SU-1 in chain and/or software change, and/or just living with it since it only occurs when the device starts with a DSD track. Switching back and forth during playback from DSD to PCM or between bitdepth/sample rates within PCM only produces the same little "click"

User selectable NOS / OS options don't (and shouldn't) affect anything during DSD playback on the R-1 and R-8 (My guess is that it's true for R-28 and similar also). My R-1 and R-8 don't have any low-level noise, and it's not even a bother to me on the R2R-11, but since Kingwa offered to upgrade my unit, I'm taking him up on it. He's a true gentleman, IMO.

On a related, but separate note, I've asked him about auto-detection of DSD in Audirvana. He's curious, but is not able to replicate b/c he does not use Audirvana. He's asked me to check with Amanero. I might. It's a non-issue for me, but I'm always curious.

- Cheers

[Edited to add - I may have misinterpreted what goes into the R2R-11 upgrade. Apologies. It may be hardware or software or a combination. After I get mine done, I'll repost]

 

[sarang-i]

For R1 version Kingwa say
The default in the unit is V3S version, you should update to V3A version
For R2R1 version
The R2R 1 no update yet , it need later around 2-3 weeks
Why nobody dobt want try update firmware!?

Is v3 version has improved sound quality over previous version?

 

[norrest]

F..ck
I dont have r1 for check

 

[Stefano74]

This morning I upgraded Amanero firmware on my R2R 1; all went smoothly, thanks @norrest and @Elder for the clear instructions.

I have noticed no improvement or deterioration with PCM playback, but now I can send native DSD via Linux up to 256 (no DoP).

I just tried with few DSD tracks at hand and I can confirm a little noise/hiss at the beginning of some tracks; strangely it does not occur for all them, and is not related to swapping between PCM and DSD or viceversa (I did only use DSD in my listening session).

This noise/hiss, when present, is barely audible at DSD64 (I had to put my head closer to the speakers to hear it) but is clear and loud at DSD256; it certainly is not pleasant to hear.

next I'll try the same from a Windows 10 PC (with Foobar), but I suspect the issue will just get confirmed.

 

[Chopin75]

Very interesting indeed. This implies that OS mode eliminates the DSD noise, although I have zero DSD noise on my R-28 in NOS 3 mode. Still, a welcome development.

No i think he meant it is similar to the Sabre signs delta DACs that are OS only. Or maybe he meant similar to the More advanced R2R1 and R2R7,

 

[ItsAllInMyHead]

I don't believe that is what he is implying or is implied.

Filtering for DSD (when applicable) is done differently than for PCM. On his DACs, DSD, is processed natively vs. converted to PCM prior to conversion. The DACs have a separate DSD "section". When the FPGA detects a DSD signal it routes the signal appropriately. The user-selectable filter options / NOS / OS etc. only apply to PCM.

I did not want to jump to any conclusions, so I confirmed this with Kingwa and asked...

May I have your permission to post to Head-Fi that on the R-1 and the R-8
"No user changes to NOS or OS on the front panel affect DSD. The options only apply to PCM"

He confirmed.

[SNIP]

[Edited to add - I may have misinterpreted what goes into the R2R-11 upgrade. Apologies. It may be hardware or software or a combination. After I get mine done, I'll repost]

I just got back from a very nice visit at the Audio-GD factory.

The upgrade was/is a hardware upgrade. It is not firmware. I did not ask if it could be done by a user, and I did not watch the upgrade. So what is it...? It's a digital filter specific to DSD. The previous version had no digital filter for DSD. It is on the board and is not user-selectable. I asked Kingwa if it was cool to post a summary of the upgrade. I did not ask if he'd upgrade other people's units. If you personally have an issue with your DSD playback, and it matters enough in your system to address it, then I'd e-mail Audio-GD to see how they can help you.

If anyone is wondering, this applies only to the R2R-11 in the current lineup of products. All other products (that support DSD) have an existing DSD digital filter. I did not ask if it applies to legacy products. However, there (should) be no issues with this particular low-level noise in other current products that he's aware of.

@Stefano74 I did not see your post prior to my visit, so I don't know if your noise/hiss is related or how to address it for an R2R-1. I don't know the difference between the R-1 and the R2R-1, but I don't have the similar issue on my R-1. Wish I could help.

On a separate note, I got to listen to a few of the products I'd consider "dream list" along with a CD transport he built several years ago (discontinued and not available). There was no time for critical listening, but it was incredibly fun nonetheless. It was a pleasure to meet the man behind the products, understand a teeny bit of what drives him and his design philosophy, along with getting my R2R-11 upgraded. It works flawlessly now. Again, if I weren't already planning a visit, I'd have been perfectly happy (as I assume many people are) with the previous version. It was very cool of him to do the upgrade.

(Now.... I need to write Samsung to see about upgrading my TV) j/k

-Cheers

 

[Stefano74]

..an update on my DSD issue..

I downloaded from the web a free sample track available for test in multiple versions (PCM, DSD64, DSD128 and DSD256), and recorded the first 20 seconds playback with my phone (just put it close to the speaker).

The noise/hiss is totally absent in PCM, and it's always present in DSD with different volume (DSD64 = low, DSD128 = medium, DSD256 = high): the noise is at the beginning and at the end of the tracks.

I have mailed them to Magna as my unit is still under warranty through them. Let's see what they will reply.

I can share my recodings here but not sure if I am allowed to add external links.

 

[Whitigir]

Amanero suck, period, get something that has an Xmos or the newest ESS DSP like gustard U16. This U16 sound so much better than even Xmos, so Amanero is like a useless component right next to it.

 

[Stefano74]

@Whitigir I assume you mean to then get into audiogd Dac via i2s (from an external converter)?

Did you then experience same issue via amanero in DSD? What dac model do you have? And is now DSD playing fine via i2s?

Sorry for the many questions, want to be sure before pulling the trigger on an external i2s converter..

 

[Whitigir]

@Whitigir I assume you mean to then get into audiogd Dac via i2s (from an external converter)?

Did you then experience same issue via amanero in DSD? What dac model do you have? And is now DSD playing fine via i2s?

Sorry for the many questions, want to be sure before pulling the trigger on an external i2s converter..

R2R7 or AudioGD equipments in general are best be utilized with I2S and not USB

DSD with Amanero is only usable with DSD128, anything higher would have weird issues such as hissing, noises of all kinds (this is the stupid Amanero, and regardless of what you do to it, Firmware or using different Pc, built...etc...the same thing, because it is the Amanero problems)

I have R2R7, and I can confirm that I2S is the best uses of AudioGD, so your DSP will matter. Yes, the DSD512 now can be used, but this U16 is not pins compatible to AudioGD, you need special kind of cables. So don’t jump on it yet. By far this Gustard U16 is only compatible to other Gustards and LKS004 HDMI Pins out

Even if you use Xingser SU6 or so, which uses XMOS DSP chip, it would still be a huge improvement when connecting toward your AudioGD via I2S. The Singxer allows flip switch style to match the Pin out compatibility of I2S ports to many different devices, and so it is more practical

 

[Stefano74]

Any R2R 1 or R1 owner here who can share his experience with direct DSD or is available to test with my same sample files?

 

[Chopin75]

..an update on my DSD issue..

I downloaded from the web a free sample track available for test in multiple versions (PCM, DSD64, DSD128 and DSD256), and recorded the first 20 seconds playback with my phone (just put it close to the speaker).

The noise/hiss is totally absent in PCM, and it's always present in DSD with different volume (DSD64 = low, DSD128 = medium, DSD256 = high): the noise is at the beginning and at the end of the tracks.

I have mailed them to Magna as my unit is still under warranty through them. Let's see what they will reply.

I can share my recodings here but not sure if I am allowed to add external links.

I also have told him (Jos from Magna) about the same issue with my R2R7, he did notice noise too, but no solution yet. I am going to Email him again. And also ask him if the newer R7 has same issue? From what you said and my experience it is likely the digital filter issue. R-11 has no good dig filter so the noise is huge. The higher grade R2Rs all have better filters and I presume the R-11 now has same type of filter. I was told R-28 has no issue at all but but I would be surprised it has a bette filter than myR2R7 but who knows, maybe it has ! If the R-7s are not plagued bu these issues I would think he he may have upgraded the latest DACs (I presume hardware, though perhaps software upgrade may help too ?)
I know digital filter from HQplayer can suppress these noise at expense of lower SQ. So likely a. digital. filter issue.
The really natural sound of Audiog-gd's DSD sound may be due to its inadequate filtering (like an unmastered vinyl) so I am not even sure if a better digital filer will necessarily be a good thing. (A Jumper or switch that can add or reduce filtering would be ideal!)

 

[ItsAllInMyHead]

Any R2R 1 or R1 owner here who can share his experience with direct DSD or is available to test with my same sample files?

Sorry for the delay. I can help with an R-1. I should be able to get some listening time Sunday when I get home.

Any word from Magna?

 

[Chopin75]

Sorry for the delay. I can help with an R-1. I should be able to get some listening time Sunday when I get home.

Any word from Magna?

I asked him if the newer DACs have resolved the issue, but he just told me about the HQplayer solution which I know about already. You can try that by downloading a trial version
His answer:

Do you use Hqplayer?

If you upsample HQPlayer it filters out the noise before it is sent to the DAC. By upsampling DSD or set filters.
From the HQPlayer manual I got this: (without resampling)
Different types of noise filters are provided. These reduce amount of ultrasonic noisepresent in the source data. Standard filtering leaves low level of ultrasonic noise. Some loudspeakers with tweeters of low power handling capability can be sensitive to this noise, especially when higher listening volumes are used. Also some poorly designed amplifiers can misbehave in presence of such ultrasonic content. Therefore more aggressive noise filters can be selected by using “Noise filter” drop list. These filters will also limit bandwidth available for the audio content. Following filters are supported.

When playback rate of DSDIFF or DSF is 88.2/96 kHz, use of extra noise filtering in addition to “standard” is less important, since most of the noise will be cut out. When playback rate of DSDIFF or DSF is 44.1/48 kHz, extra noise filtering in addition to “standard” is not needed and will actually just reduce playback quality.

 

[Stefano74]

Got the same answer here; additionally, he very much doubts this is only with R2R 1, and the same applies to all Audio-GD range (R28, R8, R7, etc.).

According to him the difference can only be the source (with active filters) or the DSD files used.

If I apply filtering in HQPlayer (e.g. native DSD 256 to "upsampled" DSD 256) the noise is gone. According to him this is the way to go, and SQ shall remain unchanged.