[FredA]

I did read that so,e DAC do process 1 bit as 5-6 bit with multibit Signa delta chips as it is more stable this way apparently wih less error but I believe that the aud gd is not doing any PCM conversion nor converting 1 bit to 5-8 bit at least not according to kingwa. And hence any firmware update would be separate from thr R2R ladder. It appears to be a simple processing of 1 bit with simple digital filter and decoded separately then sent to the analogue filers. The issue is likely inadequate digital filtering as the noise is reduced with hQ player resampling. Holospring and total dac probably use similar technology

I might be wrong but it seems to me there an 8-bit ladder for dsd on audio-gd’s boards. I would also be surprised if no upsampling was done. But again...

 

[MelonHead]

Hmm, reading through myself over the last few weeks' content, I'm a little bit confused and disappointed. I was thinking that the newer, and more expensive products of Audio-gd are free from the native DSD noise problem.
As far as I remember, gLer, and other R28 owners mentioned, the R28 is free of the R2R-11 dsd problem.
The R1 should be almost the same as the R28 on the DAC part. So what is the truth?
I've the original R2R-11, with firmware upgrade. Does the background native DSD noise of the new R1 differs from the R2R-11? If so, is it less, or different?

I really would like to stay by R2R ladder DACs and especially Audio-gd products, but native DSD is important to me, and I don't want to spend almost 1000 Euro for another flawed product.

Are there any other DAC options from reliable sources around Eur 800-1200, which can cover my needs (good, revealing, but analogue-like sound signature, R2R, problem free DSD playback)?
The new Holo Spring II is tempting, but I can't justify to hand out Eur 2000 for a DAC.

 

[Chopin75]

Hmm, reading through myself over the last few weeks' content, I'm a little bit confused and disappointed. I was thinking that the newer, and more expensive products of Audio-gd are free from the native DSD noise problem.
As far as I remember, gLer, and other R28 owners mentioned, the R28 is free of the R2R-11 dsd problem.
The R1 should be almost the same as the R28 on the DAC part. So what is the truth?
I've the original R2R-11, with firmware upgrade. Does the background native DSD noise of the new R1 differs from the R2R-11? If so, is it less, or different?

I really would like to stay by R2R ladder DACs and especially Audio-gd products, but native DSD is important to me, and I don't want to spend almost 1000 Euro for another flawed product.

Are there any other DAC options from reliable sources around Eur 800-1200, which can cover my needs (good, revealing, but analogue-like sound signature, R2R, problem free DSD playback)?
The new Holo Spring II is tempting, but I can't justify to hand out Eur 2000 for a DAC.[/QUOTE
The sad truth is R-7, R-1 all have some DSD issues even if much less than R-11. The latter is now upgraded by putting in hardware digital filter and should be similar
To the later models for DSD. Mainly DSD 256 is affected. U can hear it mainly with headphones, not so easily with speakers, mainly ar beginning or end of track. HQplayer resampling will reduce the noise to barely audible. I think
Stefano found a nice filter setting from HQplayer for it. Kingwa is supposedly working to solve this issue. I am not sure R-28 would be free of this plague. But u can ask him if all thr R2R DACs have this issue.
I am not aware of any cheap DAC under US $1000 with R2R that also does DSD. Basically 2 DAC in 1, hard to lower the price.

 

[Chopin75]

Sorry, my answer is inside the quote
here it is again:

The sad truth is R-7, R-1 all have some DSD issues even if much less than R-11. The latter is now upgraded by putting in hardware digital filter and should be similar
To the later models for DSD. Mainly DSD 256 is affected. U can hear it mainly with headphones, not so easily with speakers, mainly ar beginning or end of track. HQplayer resampling will reduce the noise to barely audible. I think
Stefano found a nice filter setting from HQplayer for it. Kingwa is supposedly working to solve this issue. I am not sure R-28 would be free of this plague. But u can ask him if all thr R2R DACs have this issue.
I am not aware of any cheap DAC under US $1000 with R2R that also does DSD. Basically 2 DAC in 1, hard to lower the price.

 

[MelonHead]

Sorry, my answer is inside the quote
here it is again:

The sad truth is R-7, R-1 all have some DSD issues even if much less than R-11. The latter is now upgraded by putting in hardware digital filter and should be similar
To the later models for DSD. Mainly DSD 256 is affected. U can hear it mainly with headphones, not so easily with speakers, mainly ar beginning or end of track. HQplayer resampling will reduce the noise to barely audible. I think
Stefano found a nice filter setting from HQplayer for it. Kingwa is supposedly working to solve this issue. I am not sure R-28 would be free of this plague. But u can ask him if all thr R2R DACs have this issue.
I am not aware of any cheap DAC under US $1000 with R2R that also does DSD. Basically 2 DAC in 1, hard to lower the price.

I don't know your options, but looking around on the market, Eur 1000 for a single dac unit is not cheap. At least it isn't for me.
Cheap DACs costs Eur 50-250 so this price range predicts at least two classes above that.
I don't want to change my listening habits in favour of a DAC. The DAC should support me and my enjoyment, and not vice-versa. I use Foobar since years, with many good plug-ins.
There is at least one possible alternative. I've heard some good news about Denafrips Ares earlier, but have to dig more into that.
https://www.vinshineaudio.com/product-page/denafrips-ares-r2r-dac
The price is around USD650 + shipping which will be way under Eur1000 here, after customs and VAT.

 

[Chopin75]

I don't know your options, but looking around on the market, Eur 1000 for a single dac unit is not cheap. At least it isn't for me.
Cheap DACs costs Eur 50-250 so this price range predict at least two classes above that.
I don't want to change my listening habits in favour of a DAC. The DAC should support me and my enjoyment, and not vice-versa. I use Foobar since years, with many good plug-ins.
There is at least one possible alternative. I've heard some good news about Denafrips Ares earlier, but have to dig more into that.
https://www.vinshineaudio.com/product-page/denafrips-ares-r2r-dac
The price is around USD650 + shipping which will be way under Eur1000 here, after customs and VAT.

Actually I was going to suggest the Denafrips but I thought they do not have a cheaper model as I only know of the Terminator. I heard it has no DSD issue. I think it converts DSD to 5-6 bit PCM and then decode, not entirely sure, you can check with them. I suspect the Audio-gd R-1 would beat it, with its R-core LPS, and fully balanced output + option of using Xmos F-1 internal board with its separate internal LPS. Hard to beat, even if there is the little noise in DSD. I would wait to see if Kingwa resolves this issue soon before making decision, I am thinking of getting the R-8 for m-Ch setup.

 

[MelonHead]

Don't want to throw a big stone in the still water, but I would like to share this new topic with measurements to you as an additional information:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-measurements-of-audio-gd-r2r11-dac-amp.5779/

I'm still enjoying and very satisfied with my unit, which has been serving me for more than 1500 active hours since this February.

 

[gLer]

Don't want to throw a big stone in the still water, but I would like to share this new topic with measurements to you as an additional information:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-measurements-of-audio-gd-r2r11-dac-amp.5779/

I'm still enjoying and very satisfied with my unit, which has been serving me for more than 1500 active hours since this February.

Thankfully I pay very little attention to Amir and his objectivist cronies. He wouldn’t know a good sounding dac if it fell from the sky and hit him on the head

 

[MelonHead]

Back to the original discussion:
Does anyone know where is the source of that digital noise over native DSD playback?

• Is it in the original records?
• Does the USB port collect the noise from the laptop or the computer?
• Does it come from the rendered, such as Foobar 2000, or HQ player?
• The R2R chip is responsible for it?

If we know the source, maybe we will be closer to the solution as well.

 

[Stefano74]

Back to the original discussion:
Does anyone know where is the source of that digital noise over native DSD playback?

• Is it in the original records?
• Does the USB port collect the noise from the laptop or the computer?
• Does it come from the rendered, such as Foobar 2000, or HQ player?
• The R2R chip is responsible for it?

If we know the source, maybe we will be closer to the solution as well.

If that can help, I can confirm my tests with the DSD noise on a R2R1 dac: issue is the same both from USB as well as from I2S connection and fed from any software player (Foobar as well as HQ player) when stream is DSD native (no up/downsampling).

When you upsample native material in HQPlayer even with same sample rate (e.g. 256 in > 256 out with HQPlayer filtering active) the noise is gone; so the issue seems in a poor/absent filtering in audio-gd for this kind of noise

 

[MelonHead]

If that can help, I can confirm my tests with the DSD noise on a R2R1 dac: issue is the same both from USB as well as from I2S connection and fed from any software player (Foobar as well as HQ player) when stream is DSD native (no up/downsampling).

When you upsample native material in HQPlayer even with same sample rate (e.g. 256 in > 256 out with HQPlayer filtering active) the noise is gone; so the issue seems in a poor/absent filtering in audio-gd for this kind of noise

Thanks for your reply. I know about it as I was among the firsts, who mentioned the problem here on Head-fi.
There is a private thread where we discussed this glitch a few months ago. As I support to collect all related information in one place, I would like to invite you. Maybe you will find something new among the 100+ posts.
I'm still curious about the source of the digital noise. This is a question which hasn't been answered since the problem emerged.

 

[sarang-i]

Don't want to throw a big stone in the still water, but I would like to share this new topic with measurements to you as an additional information:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-measurements-of-audio-gd-r2r11-dac-amp.5779/

I'm still enjoying and very satisfied with my unit, which has been serving me for more than 1500 active hours since this February.

Never go to this site.
Nothing more than "sealioning".
All data or measurements came from there is totally useless.

 

[Chopin75]

Thanks for your reply. I know about it as I was among the firsts, who mentioned the problem here on Head-fi.
There is a private thread where we discussed this glitch a few months ago. As I support to collect all related information in one place, I would like to invite you. Maybe you will find something new among the 100+ posts.
I'm still curious about the source of the digital noise. This is a question which hasn't been answered since the problem emerged.

Kingwa is apparently recognizing this issue. I am waiting to see if he would have a fix before I get the R-8

 

[Stefano74]

Thanks for your reply. I know about it as I was among the firsts, who mentioned the problem here on Head-fi.
There is a private thread where we discussed this glitch a few months ago. As I support to collect all related information in one place, I would like to invite you. Maybe you will find something new among the 100+ posts.
I'm still curious about the source of the digital noise. This is a question which hasn't been answered since the problem emerged.

Sure, glad to join the private thread..

 

[ItsAllInMyHead]

Back to the original discussion:
Does anyone know where is the source of that digital noise over native DSD playback?

• Is it in the original records?
• Does the USB port collect the noise from the laptop or the computer?
• Does it come from the rendered, such as Foobar 2000, or HQ player?
• The R2R chip is responsible for it?

If we know the source, maybe we will be closer to the solution as well.

Awesome. The more, the merrier.

So far...

Does not need to be native. Present when using DoP also. To be fair, there seem to be varying definitions of the word "native", but either way - The noise occurs for me with the same files whether they are sent native or packaged DoP.

- Not sure what you mean by "original", but it is definitely present (or maybe just more apparent) with some files and not others. In some of the file links I sent you, the original recording was DXD. The noise is not in the "original", it's only in the DSD converted files. Those are also the only files I've found so far that when I convert on the fly from PCM to DSD, I hear the noise.
- No (ruled out by it being present using I2S on the Audio-Gd R-1 and R-8 and not present with any D/S DAC I've tried whether they be Audio-Gd or other mfg. over USB)
- What do you mean by "rendered"? No, since the noise is present when sending a bit-perfect stream to the DAC and removed in some cases using certain players and altering filtering.
- Possibly, but it seems to be a composite effect of the full digital path including the R2R section of the DAC (the actual elements doing the conversion) and whatever filtering is used (or not). Intentionally altering the signal with filtering in the digital domain prior to sending it to the DAC can "solve" the problem. Also, it's a subtle but potentially important difference that Audio-Gd does not use R2R "chips", it's a discrete circuit.

Great questions. I hope we get some answers.