Audio-Gd R-28 impressions thread
May 26, 2023 at 11:50 AM Post #1,426 of 1,787
There is a new R-28, NOS-only version called "R28 NOS". A price is $100 lower than R-28 2022 model. It would be a natural upgrade path from my R2R-11, it is why I took a closer look at this model, but read on:

TL;DR: Limitations are more severe than just removing oversampling feature. FPGA which was responsible for many functions is gone, now clock design resembles R2R-11mK2. Rather get a 2022 model while stock lasts!

Now it goes on:

Part A: Missing many functions serviced by FPGA:

1) Oversampling. Now NOS-only, no digital processing is available. Previously there was a selectable option 2x/4x/8x. Not a problem for me and all users are allerted accordingly. It is why is 100 bucks cheaper.

2) Clock management, synchronisation and jitter reduction with built-in PLL. In some cases it is not needed, by example with asynchronous USB transfers. However Kingwa has decided to add galvanic isolation on all ports, including the USB and I2S port. Read part B about consequences. In this case lack of clock management will degrade performance on USB and I2S port to the level off a DAC in $500 range. It is serious, not kidding...

3) S/PDIF receiver. Now a receiver use dedicated chips, perhaps the same parts as in R2R-11 Mk2. This is a chip with a good reputation, but in a standalone configuration do not have support for 176kHz sampling rate. As a consequence, there is also no playback of DSD-64 (or SACD) on the coax/optical ports. SACD playback will be still possible if a player has HDMI-I2S or USB port.

Im my opinion such limitation is unusual in the DAC of this price range. This particular chip can be reprogrammed on the fly which bring support for 176kHz, it requires adding a few $ worth control unit for autodetection of the incoming sampling rate. There is a small microprocessor inside a display panel, Kingwa could use. It hasn't been done, unfortunately. Lousy, opportunistic implementation.

Part B:
The new model adds galvanic isolation on all ports (not an optional feature like in R2R-11mk2), including USB port, 2022 model do not have isolator. However 2022 model use a pair of Accusilicon ultra-low jitter oscilators. A clock for USB transfers is delivered from these oscilators (Amanero module has no oscilators), giving support for asynchronous transfers based on a high precision internal clock, so there is no need for jitter reduction processing (PLL in the FPGA). I expected that R28 will be improved with a clock feed-back isolator like it is done in higher models (R-8 and up). There is zero added jitter in this solution. The 2022 model model made a step up in this direction, I expected it would be continued, is not!

It is actually step back, replicating design from the lower priced R2R-11mk2. Isolator is adding jitter, there is an urgent need to fix it with PLL, but there is no FPGA to do it anymore!

Look at the photos, there is no Accusilicon clocks on the main board anymore. Instead there are clocks on the Amanero board. Judging from a flat shape, Crystek CCHD-571 (low jitter) type, but it doesn't help much, as clock performance is lost on the isolator.

This is all from me, I always supported Audio GD. I understand a reason of dropping FPGA. I restrained myself from criticising galvanic option on the entry model R2R-11mk2, but in the R1/R28 range it is a major step back. With little more attention to details could be done better at no extra cost. In other words, not acceptable.
Maybe Kingwa will read this. How is the isolator adding jitter? Augmented rise time? Noise added?

There is a CPLD however as a replacement. Not sure the spdif input go through isolation. And we do not see what clock is used for the spdif receiver. I would assume that using a ddc, the r28 nos will really be awesome. And still best the r2r 11 mkii though usb.
 
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May 26, 2023 at 1:34 PM Post #1,427 of 1,787
Maybe Kingwa will read this. How is the isolator adding jitter? Augmented rise time? Noise added?

There is a CPLD however as a replacement. Not sure the spdif input go through isolation. And we do not see what clock is used for the spdif receiver. I would assume that using a ddc, the r28 nos will really be awesome. And still best the r2r 11 mkii though usb.
Isolator add much more jitter than S/PDIF from a Woolfson chip. I think you posted somewhere a model number from your R2R-11mk2 or I could read from a photo. I downloaded specs, this figure is from memory.

No, there are listed 5 CPLD devices: one traditionally for each of four ladder DA-8 modules and a fifth is located on the Amanero module. Kingwa always add it to the spec list.

Yes, agreed. S/PDIF has a transformer for isolation, receiver is operating on a clean side, so clock and data lines can feed ladder directly.

It is not important what type of clock is for S/PDIF receivers. It is needed mainly for synchronising switching logic inside. A chip has a very efficient digital PLL. The output clock follows input clock, filtering some HF rubbish by use of PLL, but low frequency jitter is getting through. As it always was with S/PDIF, quality of sound depends on the source. R-28 NOS should give good sound from S/PDIF.

Using DDC? You can try, but it is said "all ports are isolated", so I2S too. I would prefer non-isolated I2S in this case. If there is no proper clock synchronisation following the isolator, let DDC and DAC work as a tandem on the same ground level. It makes sense.
 
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May 26, 2023 at 2:55 PM Post #1,428 of 1,787
Isolator add much more jitter than S/PDIF from a Woolfson chip. I think you posted somewhere a model number from your R2R-11mk2 or I could read from a photo. I downloaded specs, this figure is from memory.

No, there are listed 5 CPLD devices: one traditionally for each of four ladder DA-8 modules and a fifth is located on the Amanero module. Kingwa always add it to the spec list.

Yes, agreed. S/PDIF has a transformer for isolation, receiver is operating on a clean side, so clock and data lines can feed ladder directly.

It is not important what type of clock is for S/PDIF receivers. It is needed mainly for synchronising switching logic inside. A chip has a very efficient digital PLL. The output clock follows input clock, filtering some HF rubbish by use of PLL, but low frequency jitter is getting through. As it always was with S/PDIF, quality of sound depends on the source. R-28 NOS should give good sound from S/PDIF.

Using DDC? You can try, but it is said "all ports are isolated", so I2S too. I would prefer non-isolated I2S in this case. If there is no proper clock synchronisation following the isolator, let DDC and DAC work as a tandem on the same ground level. It makes sense.
Nice observations. Look closely, there is a CPLD on the digital board.
 
May 26, 2023 at 4:03 PM Post #1,430 of 1,787
There is a new R-28, NOS-only version called "R28 NOS". A price is $100 lower than R-28 2022 model. It would be a natural upgrade path from my R2R-11, it is why I took a closer look at this model, but read on:

TL;DR: Limitations are more severe than just removing oversampling feature. FPGA which was responsible for many functions is gone, now clock design resembles R2R-11mK2. Rather get a 2022 model while stock lasts!

Now it goes on:

Part A: Missing many functions serviced by FPGA:

1) Oversampling. Now NOS-only, no digital processing is available. Previously there was a selectable option 2x/4x/8x. Not a problem for me and all users are allerted accordingly. It is why is 100 bucks cheaper.

2) Clock management, synchronisation and jitter reduction with built-in PLL. In some cases it is not needed, by example with asynchronous USB transfers. However Kingwa has decided to add galvanic isolation on all ports, including the USB and I2S port. Read part B about consequences. In this case lack of clock management will degrade performance on USB and I2S port to the level off a DAC in $500 range. It is serious, not kidding...

3) S/PDIF receiver. Now a receiver use dedicated chips, perhaps the same parts as in R2R-11 Mk2. This is a chip with a good reputation, but in a standalone configuration do not have support for 176kHz sampling rate. As a consequence, there is also no playback of DSD-64 (or SACD) on the coax/optical ports. SACD playback will be still possible if a player has HDMI-I2S or USB port.

Im my opinion such limitation is unusual in the DAC of this price range. This particular chip can be reprogrammed on the fly which bring support for 176kHz, it requires adding a few $ worth control unit for autodetection of the incoming sampling rate. There is a small microprocessor inside a display panel, Kingwa could use. It hasn't been done, unfortunately. Lousy, opportunistic implementation.

Part B:
The new model adds galvanic isolation on all ports (not an optional feature like in R2R-11mk2), including USB port, 2022 model do not have isolator. However 2022 model use a pair of Accusilicon ultra-low jitter oscilators. A clock for USB transfers is delivered from these oscilators (Amanero module has no oscilators), giving support for asynchronous transfers based on a high precision internal clock, so there is no need for jitter reduction processing (PLL in the FPGA). I expected that R28 will be improved with a clock feed-back isolator like it is done in higher models (R-8 and up). There is zero added jitter in this solution. The 2022 model model made a step up in this direction, I expected it would be continued, is not!

It is actually step back, replicating design from the lower priced R2R-11mk2. Isolator is adding jitter, there is an urgent need to fix it with PLL, but there is no FPGA to do it anymore!

Look at the photos, there is no Accusilicon clocks on the main board anymore. Instead there are clocks on the Amanero board. Judging from a flat shape, Crystek CCHD-571 (low jitter) type, but it doesn't help much, as clock performance is lost on the isolator.

This is all from me, I always supported Audio GD. I understand a reason of dropping FPGA. I restrained myself from criticising galvanic option on the entry model R2R-11mk2, but in the R1/R28 range it is a major step back. With little more attention to details could be done better at no extra cost. In other words, not acceptable.
Thank you.

So I'm hold on to my upgraded 2019 a little longer.
Wasn't going to buy a "restricted" R28, rather than R27.
Had the opportunity to test my "old" R28 beside a Holo Spring 3 KTE/ Bliss stack lately and didn't miss much, except a little more resolution and slightly better imaging with the Caldera/ VO.

It's still a great and affordable AIO, not to say one of the best offerings up to a certain point. :ok_hand:
 
May 27, 2023 at 1:45 AM Post #1,431 of 1,787
Had the opportunity to test my "old" R28 beside a Holo Spring 3 KTE/ Bliss stack lately and didn't miss much, except a little more resolution and slightly better imaging with the Caldera/ VO.

Thank you for sharing this experience with us :)
Was that the Holo Stack from KlaraKlang?
 
May 27, 2023 at 4:10 AM Post #1,432 of 1,787
Thank you for sharing this experience with us :)
Was that the Holo Stack from KlaraKlang?
Hi Louisiana. :upside_down:

Yes, it was.

Love the design of that Holo devices really much.
Was a great listening session and I hope to do it again in July.

I guess I'm not sensitive enough to justify the 6 time higher price tag to myself. ^^
Or I have already become too accustomed to the R2R sound, which is great for me.

Both units sounded damn good coupled with the iMac.
 
May 27, 2023 at 11:04 AM Post #1,433 of 1,787
Hi Louisiana. :upside_down:

Yes, it was.
We had also thought about a meeting, but unfortunately both I and the rest of the family was sick :frowning2:

Love the design of that Holo devices really much.
Was a great listening session and I hope to do it again in July.
Yes, the design is beautiful, when I bought my ifi stack at the time, Holo did not yet have a headphone amplifier, and I really wanted devices that matched.

I guess I'm not sensitive enough to justify the 6 time higher price tag to myself. ^^
Or I have already become too accustomed to the R2R sound, which is great for me.

Both units sounded damn good coupled with the iMac.

For me, the R28 with the Cayin HA-3A is also the absolute "endgame".
However, I would like to buy a Gustard R26 for "optical" reasons, and because I have a Gustard U18 as DDC - but also think it's just a waste of money.
 
May 27, 2023 at 1:30 PM Post #1,434 of 1,787
We had also thought about a meeting, but unfortunately both I and the rest of the family was sick :frowning2:


Yes, the design is beautiful, when I bought my ifi stack at the time, Holo did not yet have a headphone amplifier, and I really wanted devices that matched.



For me, the R28 with the Cayin HA-3A is also the absolute "endgame".
However, I would like to buy a Gustard R26 for "optical" reasons, and because I have a Gustard U18 as DDC - but also think it's just a waste of money.
Would like to have a listen to that R28/ Cayin combo.
Mainly bc i never heard my Quad out of a tube amp, besides the Quad amp at Hifi Concept in Munich under rough listening conditions back in 2019.

The TA-26 w/ stock tubes is great with the VO, but I tend to couple it with the Mojo, rather than with the R28. :sweat_smile:
With the AGD, this combo is a bit to "mellow sounding", depending on the tracks/genre played ofc.

Wonder what a suitable tube amp is able to squeeze out of the "little" Quad. ^^

For the record, i like listening to (fast) power metal or symphonic metal (with female vocals mostly), but open to all genres/ music from Agnes Obel to ZZ top if it sounds good to me. :wink:

Maybe we'll have the opportunity to meet and play some tunes through the Holo Spring/ Cayin combo.
Imagine that would be really nice. :metal:

Even KlaraKlang said there's no need to upgrade from R28 and I concur.
Better investment: adding more quality headphones to the stable. :)
 
Aug 31, 2023 at 4:19 PM Post #1,435 of 1,787
Hello all, my first post here.

I've decided to sell my Warwick Acoustics Bravura and Susvara/Holo systems to pocket some money.

Because I can't be without headphones, for their replacement I decided on an Audio gd R28 to drive a new pair of HiFiman HE 1000 V3 stealth. I'm a fan of R2R which led me to the R28.

I'm hoping that this combination will give me enjoying listening sessions and fun, informative conversations with you all in this thread.
 
Aug 31, 2023 at 5:48 PM Post #1,436 of 1,787
Hello all, my first post here.

I've decided to sell my Warwick Acoustics Bravura and Susvara/Holo systems to pocket some money.

Because I can't be without headphones, for their replacement I decided on an Audio gd R28 to drive a new pair of HiFiman HE 1000 V3 stealth. I'm a fan of R2R which led me to the R28.

I'm hoping that this combination will give me enjoying listening sessions and fun, informative conversations with you all in this thread.

I don't remember which amp the R-28 is based on. If it's the Master 19 you could very happily run a pair of HE6SE V2 off of it.

Welcome to the club, Audio-gd is the best stuff :)
 
Aug 31, 2023 at 5:51 PM Post #1,437 of 1,787
I don't remember which amp the R-28 is based on. If it's the Master 19 you could very happily run a pair of HE6SE V2 off of it.

Welcome to the club, Audio-gd is the best stuff :)
Thank you!
 
Aug 31, 2023 at 6:08 PM Post #1,439 of 1,787
I like a warm headphone with Audio-gd
Cool. I think overall HiFiman have a nice warm signature. I've had multiple headphones from them and I felt this. I've owned the Susvara for a while and many people say that it's bright but I simply don't hear it. I am very much looking forward to the V3 stealth planner magnetic through the Audio GD.
 
Aug 31, 2023 at 7:31 PM Post #1,440 of 1,787
Hello all, my first post here.

I've decided to sell my Warwick Acoustics Bravura and Susvara/Holo systems to pocket some money.

Because I can't be without headphones, for their replacement I decided on an Audio gd R28 to drive a new pair of HiFiman HE 1000 V3 stealth. I'm a fan of R2R which led me to the R28.

I'm hoping that this combination will give me enjoying listening sessions and fun, informative conversations with you all in this thread.
Wow.
That's a hugh step back, money wise.

But to be honest, I've heard the Spring 3-Bliss combo to my R28 fave to face.
While the design is much better on the Holos, imo, there's not much difference between them, at least for me.
A slightly bit better separation, but that's for me.

There's a bigger difference when I hook up the Mojo to the R28, tbh.

Maybe my ears aren't that much trained to appreciate the difference between Holo and Audio-GD, or my eyes are blind while enjoying my music. :sweat_smile:
Whatever it is, the most important thing is, and will be, my pleasure while listening.
 

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