[cynan]

Quote:

What do you plan using a new dac for? I think "technically better" should not be the only criterion for what to get. What happens with technical limitations is you get different presentations, or interpretations even, when you consider the audio designer may tweak things by ear. If you've ever heard harshness or got bored at a live performance you know technical fidelity is not the only variable in enjoying sound.
 

 
Mostly for music?
 
Primarily for single-ended DAC output to my integrated Virtue Sensation speaker amp. I also listen occasionally with HD650s (which I was going to get a balanced cable for if I went with the NFB-10WM). Source will be a lowly PC, so I'm also thinking of grabbing their digital interface.
 
Currently, for a source, with my speaker system I mostly use analog RCA out from my PC sound card (HT Omega Claro Halo) to the Virtue for music, or else HDMI from an AMD Radeon video card to my Denon AVR for home theater. For HP, it's primarily the HD650s straight to the HT Omega Claro Halo (model with a built in HP amp chip). So, no I don't have much experience with higher-end sources, but was hoping to get something that I could really appreciate and upgrade with. Hence this struggle 

. Maybe I'll just save some money and get the NFB-5 and call it a day. Or I could go with a Nuforce HDP with an upgraded PSU. The Burson HA-160 looks nice, but that's getting a little above budget..
 
As far as music goes, I listen to all sorts...

 

[somestranger26]

Quote:

Not according to Kingwa (see #2): 
http://www.audio-gd.com/Agents.htm.
 
Earlier in the thread someone corrected me for saying the DAC power supply was not class A, and seemed more knowledgeable about it than me. Either way, you shouldn't get so hung up on what type of power supply the gear is using since Kingwa always puts in high quality ones for the price. NFB-10 sounds amazing on my speakers single-ended.
 
And also not according to the conclusions of some in the NFB-2/3 impressions thread:
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/512856/audio-gd-nfb-2-nfb-3-delivery-impression-thread/345#post_7185709
 
As pointed out in that thread, the PSU for the NFB-2 is essentially identical to that for the NFB-1 (except, of course, in duplicate for the NFB-1). The NFB-10 uses a different PSU, that design-wise is similar to the NFB-12 (and NFB-5, I think), though the NFB-10 uses R-core transformer, while the budget DACs mentioned use toroidal.
 
Yes, but as pointed out at the top of the last page and elsewhere the NFB-1 performs nearly the same as NFB-10 unless fed very high quality source material.

This is interesting. Do you remember if this was the WM or ES versions? I will search for this.
 
At the top of the last page even. The ES version, though WM will be close.

 
Quote:

Yea, I haven't had that issue either.  Actually, I'm surprised that the I may enjoy the -10 more than anything else I have and I do have much more expensive setups.  The DAC section clearly isn't to the level of the nfb-1 but you only notice sometime on very high-res files.  I did have the one clicking issue but it turns out that I had visitors last weekend and I'm pretty sure they left my -10 on for 2 days straight, with 2 headphones connected and playing continuously by the time I used it again. The issue hasn't come back.
 
I think there is one huge omission on the -10 that I didn't know of until I got it.  The AMP section is fantastic but you can't use it as a AMP.  That may result in it getting returned.  Hot a huge deal, esp since I already have 4 (digital obviously) devices connected to it but I was hoping to connect my nfb-1 to it for comparisons.

 
 

 

[cynan]

Thanks for posting that, Somestranger26. You are right, I am probably getting too caught up in the details (details I don't fully understand no less).
 
I guess I'm being a bit obsessive about the purchase of my first decent digital source.. But hey, isn't that what this forum's for? 

 

[SemiAudiophile]

 
Quote:

Quote:

What do you plan using a new dac for? I think "technically better" should not be the only criterion for what to get. What happens with technical limitations is you get different presentations, or interpretations even, when you consider the audio designer may tweak things by ear. If you've ever heard harshness or got bored at a live performance you know technical fidelity is not the only variable in enjoying sound.
 

 
Mostly for music?
 
Primarily for single-ended DAC output to my integrated Virtue Sensation speaker amp. I also listen occasionally with HD650s (which I was going to get a balanced cable for if I went with the NFB-10WM). Source will be a lowly PC, so I'm also thinking of grabbing their digital interface.
 
Currently, for a source, with my speaker system I mostly use analog RCA out from my PC sound card (HT Omega Claro Halo) to the Virtue for music, or else HDMI from an AMD Radeon video card to my Denon AVR for home theater. For HP, it's primarily the HD650s straight to the HT Omega Claro Halo (model with a built in HP amp chip). So, no I don't have much experience with higher-end sources, but was hoping to get something that I could really appreciate and upgrade with. Hence this struggle 

. Maybe I'll just save some money and get the NFB-5 and call it a day. Or I could go with a Nuforce HDP with an upgraded PSU. The Burson HA-160 looks nice, but that's getting a little above budget..
 
As far as music goes, I listen to all sorts...

 
Based on your current setup, I think you will appreciate either or. They are both quality products that offer good bang for the buck. If using HD650 as headphone, I think you would appreciate the balance out of the NFB-10WM. I think HD650 benefits immensely from going balanced versus other headphones. If comparing the 2 units, I think the latter maybe just be marginally better, if you want the best just go for their flagship unit. It helps to listen to as many gear as you can to give you a starting point to base your comparisons on.
 
 

 

[haloxt]

NFB-3 is their best bang for buck dac atm. I'd recommend that if you have no plans to go balanced speaker amp, and it'll give you a good starting point to understand the kind of sound signature audio-gd aims for in their acss line-up. Kingwa said that dac19 was "almost lifelike", which I think is very true after using it for two years, so if you compare nfb-2/3 to real life sound it will give you a good idea of whether single-ended is what you like, or if you desire the technical performance of balanced to bring you closer to life-like presentation. If you listen to headphones mainly, then NFB-10 may be a good candidate, you won't have to worry about dac/amp synergy, you get lower price since it is in one box, and it allows flexibility for a balanced speaker amp in the future.
 
NFB-3 sounds quite different than the claro halo, which I also have, I think you will be surprised by the NFB-3's almost life-like sound. I'm guessing it will pair well with your speaker amp, but make sure you have a pretty good headphone amp to go with the nfb-3 too. NFB-10 will likely have notably better technical ability than NFB-3+same level amp, going closer to realism but I'm guessing a little less smooth/full.
 
I'm repeating myself like a broken record lol, but imo, NFB-3 should be about what the majority of music lovers would consider the "ideal" compromise between fidelity and musicality. It won't demand your attention every moment like real life music but will be listenable for a very long time, since it doesn't resolve the finest of details it's kind of like zooming out of the music, you get a more general overview, or bird's eye presentation instead of attention-grabbing lucidity. Some people like to hear very good detail or analyze music and enjoy studio headphones, then maybe NFB-10 may be more enjoyable for them. Audio-gd's top of the line neutral gear are for people who want to be able to seriously listen to as much faithfulness to microdetail as possible, to clearly hear the thought and nuances musicians may give to each note even if it is very often "unmusical", and how the musicians interact with the venue and other musicians. The law of diminishing returns certainly applies comparing these three tiers of products, the top tier's goal being ever more exact microdetail, ever closer approximation to real sound, which can often be boring. I'd dissuade you from considering audio-gd's top tier gear, unless you're dead certain it is the kind of sound reproduction you want.

 

[cynan]

Not a bad idea to try something like the NFB-3 first to see if I like Audio-gd's implementation of these DACs. However, I'm still drawn to a nice all-in-one DAC/HP amp combo. Decisions, decisions. 
 
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by haloxt 
 
I'm guessing it will pair well with your speaker amp, but make sure you have a pretty good headphone amp to go with the nfb-3 too.

 
This is what keeps bringing me back to the NFB-10 from the NFB-3: I don't currently own a good HP amp. The cost of NFB-3 + decent HP amp wouldn't be too far off the NFB-10...
 
Anyway, thank you for taking the time to ruminate on my "dilemma".  

 

[haloxt]

Quite a dilemma you have . If you don't have a good headphone amp, then I'd suggest to just go with nfb-10. It might not sound as good as nfb-3 connected to your speaker amp, but you will get quite high fidelity headphone sound.

 

[tme110]

I feel that the amp in the -10 is pretty fantastic.

 

[OPrwtos]

Quote:

I feel that the amp in the -10 is pretty fantastic.

better than c2.1?
 
 

 

[cynan]

Quote:

better than c2.1?
 
 

For single-ended headphones, probably not. Balanced headphones is where the NFB-10 shines. The HP amp in the NFB-10 is more powerful than the C-2.1. This is probably the main reason why Kingwa didn't use a true class A design. The lower efficiency of the class A amplifier circuit would have probably required a larger transformer and put out too much heat to properly drive a set of power-hungry balanced headphones. As a trade off, the power circuitry for the DAC suffers (at least in theory - still waiting for someone to compare the NFB-10WM single-ended out with the NFB-2/3). And I guess there was probably a good reason why they couldn't do class A for the DAC and linear for the HP amp... However, comparing the amp in the NFB-10 vs the C-2.1 is purely academic as you can't use the NFB-10 as a stand-alone amp.
 
On another note, I emailed Kingwa to ask if he was considering implementing the digital filters for the NFB-10/1 in future as he's done with the NFB-2/3. Maybe this is more complicated with a balanced setup? Waiting for a reply...

 

[OPrwtos]

Quote:

However, comparing the amp in the NFB-10 vs the C-2.1 is purely academic as you can't use the NFB-10 as a stand-alone amp.
 

oh i know, i was deciding between nfb-10 vs nfb-2 + c-2.1 for akg 701. But the thing is if i went for the nfb-10 i would have to go for balanced to get the best out of it right? and the cable replacement would cost £238. So what do you think is the best option - 
 
nfb-10 + price of akg k701 with recabling would be (582 + 165 + 238) = £985       (balanced operation)
 
nfb-2 + c-2.1 + akg 701 (635 + 165) = £800     (unbalanced operation)
 
What is better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
 
 
 
 

 

[sphinxvc]

Are you certain you can handle the K701 without some coloration?  It might be wise to get the C 2.1 with the Moon option (unless you plan on using ACSS).  

 

[OPrwtos]

well with the combo with c2.1 i was planning on using acss

 

[tme110]

wow, I think you may be thinking about this way too much.  You go with whichever one works the best for you, there isn't a wrong answer - though my vote is for the -10.
 
It only costs about $5 to ballance 701's - all you need to do is reterminate it.  But your missing shipping costs.  My quote from AGD was well over a $100 more than what is listed on thier site.  It was cheaper (and all around better) to order from Pacific valve.  The -10 is pretty heavy.
 
Do you really care about digital filters?   I haven't used them but I kind of just took them as toys added to the cheaper models. I could easy be wrong though.
 
Anyone who thinks the -10 isn't a good SE amp hasn't listened to it.  In fact, and even though I probably have the newest -10 anywhere - I think I'm going to sell mine because I want a ROC instead (becuase I love the amp).  But I'm only interested in this because I already have a NFB-1 and I bought the -10 to use with the -1 but can't.

 

[sphinxvc]

Pacific Valve is not carrying any Audio-GD DACs ATM.  OPrwtos, many have found Audio-GD's neutral, including me, to be a little hot for the K701s, as they are a bright phone by nature.  YMMV, of course, but it's something to consider.  Tme110 is right, it's very cheap to balance the K701s if you DIY, and there are good guides here, but if you have no experience or tools, it may not be viable.  As far as digital filters or OPA's being toys, it's just another form of EQ, ain't nothing wrong with that, since every circuit is voiced a certain way.