[Articnoise]

For true NOS remove the bypass jumper. I recently asked Kingwa re this jumper and his response was: "Yes this will bypass the DSP and filter and the PLL, so the source must had enough low jitter and good cable for transmit the signal."

I recommend up sampling your music via HQPlayer or equivalent - The filters available in these players are significantly more tuned/better than those in the M7 DSP.

 

My experience is in line with what Kingwa says also on the 1x oversample and 90db stopband. NOS puts more stress on the use of good source that has very low jitter and the use of good HDMI cables thou.

 

The 1x oversample and 90db stopband reduce the use of the DSP filters as the signal is not passing the filter multiple times as it does with over sampling. The 90dB stopband is not as open and reveling as the 50 dB, but is way smoother, more coherent, fuller bass and with much better image. 

 

HQPlayer sound good, IMO better than Foobar, Jriver and JPlay also without up sampling or NOS. 

 

[Articnoise]

   
Thanks for the input! Does dither matter if you're at 1x oversample?

 

I liked the dither on both on oversampling and NOS. Not a night and day difference thou.

 

[falconcry]

OK now I have a question about cables: I'm using a PC > USB out > DI-2014 > HDMI out > Master 7. Let's say I have 7' to cover between the PC and the DAC, and I can position the DI anywhere in between. Would it be better to have a 1' USB cable with a 6' HDMI cable, a 6' USB cable with a 1' HDMI cable, or (2) 3.5' cables? Thoughts?
 
I am currently using a WireWorld Ultraviolet USB 2.0 cable and a generic HDMI cable. I will at least upgrade the HDMI to match the USB, but I might upgrade both at the same time. Is there a jump in performance moving from Ultraviolet to Starlight? Is there an advantage to getting the Starlight USB 3.0 over the USB 2.0 when used with the DI-2014?
 
Thanks for all the help, folks!

 

[Articnoise]

  OK now I have a question about cables: I'm using a PC > USB out > DI-2014 > HDMI out > Master 7. Let's say I have 7' to cover between the PC and the DAC, and I can position the DI anywhere in between. Would it be better to have a 1' USB cable with a 6' HDMI cable, a 6' USB cable with a 1' HDMI cable, or (2) 3.5' cables? Thoughts?
 
I am currently using a WireWorld Ultraviolet USB 2.0 cable and a generic HDMI cable. I will at least upgrade the HDMI to match the USB, but I might upgrade both at the same time. Is there a jump in performance moving from Ultraviolet to Starlight? Is there an advantage to getting the Starlight USB 3.0 over the USB 2.0 when used with the DI-2014?
 
Thanks for all the help, folks!

 

Where is a difference in SQ between the Ultraviolet and the Starlight USB, but the difference is not big and not worth going for if you already have the Ultraviolet and don’t need a longer/shorter cable IMO. Something like the JCAT USB, Totaldac USB or likewise is a different story and price range.   

 

To upgrade to a better than a generic HDMI cable is a well worth it in my book. To me the difference between a generic HDMI and a good audio grade HDMI is more or less the same as the difference between a generic USB cables and a good audio grade USB.

 

If you only are talking about 7 feet, that’s no problem for neither USB nor HDMI so pick your poison or just keep your Ultraviolet and buy a good HDMI in the length that you need.

 

I’m not sure about this, but I highly doubt that the Starlight USB 3.0 will sound different than the USB 2.0 when used with the DI-2014. 

 

[evillamer]

IME, HDMI I2S cables do affect the sound signature:
 
Audioquest Carbon HDMI: much brighter overall presentation
GE Pro Hdmi: Improved bass response vs daiyo
Daiyo Hdmi: Base line
Gigabyte videocard Hdmi: duller sound

 

[falconcry]

   

Where is a difference in SQ between the Ultraviolet and the Starlight USB, but the difference is not big and not worth going for if you already have the Ultraviolet and don’t need a longer/shorter cable IMO. Something like the JCAT USB, Totaldac USB or likewise is a different story and price range.   

 

To upgrade to a better than a generic HDMI cable is a well worth it in my book. To me the difference between a generic HDMI and a good audio grade HDMI is more or less the same as the difference between a generic USB cables and a good audio grade USB.

 

If you only are talking about 7 feet, that’s no problem for neither USB nor HDMI so pick your poison or just keep your Ultraviolet and buy a good HDMI in the length that you need.

 

I’m not sure about this, but I highly doubt that the Starlight USB 3.0 will sound different than the USB 2.0 when used with the DI-2014. 

 
I'm leaning towards upgrading to Starlight for both cables. The subtleties and nuances are what keep this hobby interesting for me. My full system looks like this right now:
 
PC > foobar2000 in ASIO > USB out > DI-2014 > i2s via HDMI out > Master 7 > ARC LS-26 tube preamp > ARC VS-115 tube power amp > Magnepan 3.7 speakers. 

 

[wmedrz]

Hey guys, so I switched out the DI2014 for a Transient MKII + Bakoon PSU and for the first time set the jumpers on the JCAT to use 5V direct from Bakoon. I also turned on the power filtering on the JCAT board. I was using the JCAT stock with DI2014 which has its own power, so when I took the card out to turn on the 5V molex jumper I noticed the filter on the board was off as well. 
 
When I put my headphones on the sound exploded! I'm impressed by how smooth, rounded, and BIG everything is at this point. I'm cranking stuff dangerously high...
 
So I go on to test other ports. I try the standalone front and back ports on my computer. With the Transient plugged into those ports and using 5V from the computer it pretty much sounds like the DI. There were differences but I didn't stick around long enough to evaluate what was different because they were small. 
 
The difference between Transient II + Bakoon PSU v DI2014 or Transient II + computer power are large and apparent.
 
I did a short test of the DAC portion of this converter and it was weak enough for me to turn off after about 10 minutes. The sound was sort of flat and boring, lacking punch. Maybe it was the M9 pairing via single ended RCA? But I have other DAC's hooked up to the M9 via RCA and they sound fine. Maybe it needs warm up time? Break in? I don't know.
 
The external 5V power to the JCAT board brings this converter alive. I believe I'm finally hearing the full potential of the JCAT board and I've had it now for over half a year! This is a fantastic sounding upgrade. CI Audio also sells a standalone PSU for the Transient II, so that may have the same or better effect as using the Bakoon to power the USB board.
 
Unfortunately the only other converters I can compare the Transient to are the DI2014 and a more expensive converter hooked up to the M7 via BNC. I think it beats both in terms of clarity, fluidity, dynamics, and definitely timing. The sound from the M7 becomes large hooked up to the Transient.
 
I also tested my D90X as a transport via the supplied coax and the differences between that and the Transient were pretty much in line as the differences between the Transient and the other two converters. I actually feel the D90X was the worst sounding of the bunch with a severely lacking bass. I blame it on the M7 coax in. 
 
Running off computer power in a generic USB the Transient still etched both converters out, but these aren't the type of immediate differences I'm hearing with the Transient running off Bakoon PSU. 
 
I'm also using the BNC out on the Transient to coax in on a Parasound DAC and feel this bests the other converters as well. Again, it doesn't sound as apparent as with M7 but there is improvement in the upper frequencies and overall sense of space. I'm testing recordings which have large shifts in range. Recordings which I typically would have liked to listen to much louder, but when the loud chord section started I knew I would have to turn down. What the Transient does is bring all the frequencies to a much more tolerable level. Loud portions of recordings which previously sounded compressed and artificial sound more lively and effortless. 
 
I guess effortless is the best way to describe what the Transient brings to the table, and that's what I mean by large or huge sound. The sound is fuller with a bigger sense of space. The highs extend yet remain smooth, the lows are articulated with higher quality, the mids aren't as in your face yet retain their clarity and volume. Everything is simply effortless, smoother, more enjoyable and easier to listen to!
 
The Transient has a mini 5 pin DIN I2S which I have never seen before. I'm not even sure which DAC's accept this type of connection. I would have preferred a coax RCA out as a substitute to the DIN, but I guess a BNC out is expected on a higher end converter. I don't think it's possible but I've been checking around to see if there is some sort of cable or adapter which would make the mini DIN out into a standard 75ohm coax.
 
One thing I like about the DI is the number of outs and the different configurations Kingwa will put together upon request, even if there can be minor issues running them at the same time. I realize the Transient is marketed as a converter + DAC, but the addition of RCA coax would be welcome. 
 
I am using the M7 factory standard with the Transient. I tried NOS a few months ago with the DI but felt it sounded a little too tin-cany for me. There was a type of hollowness to the tone I didn't particularly enjoy, and I preferred the solid sound of oversampling at the expense of a little bit of stage. I will try NOS and PLL off with the Transient and maybe it will sound better. All in all I think the JCAT + Bakoon + Transient MKII is a great upgrade.

 

[aive]

So I had some time today to run some tests and measure waveforms with my DSO. Some notes:

1. 1 x OS set via jumper (jumper on IPS0), is not actually 1 x OS (or NOS). Seemed to be ~8x when I played back 44.1 khz files.
2. If you place jumpers on IPS0 AND IPS1 (not documented in online manual) it is 1 x OS (NOS) presumably via DSP with PLL and dithering functionality (as opposed to doing NOS by removing the BYPASS jumper and bypassing DSP completely).
3. NOS mode is limited to 192 kHz input via USB, anything higher resulted in no sound. And 96 kHz via SPDIF, anything higher via SPDIF resulted in distortion. As a result, I think I'll be avoiding NOS mode for now with the M7 as 192 kHz is not sufficient to reconstruct smooth waveforms > 10 kHz. I may try again when I get an I2S source.
4. Just as an FYI, the analogue filter on the output is -3 dB at 40 kHz (from Kingwa).
5. I highly recommend AVOIDING the M7's USB input, there is something screwy with it. Previous tests with square waves resulted in considerable amplitude modulation distortion. As part of my tests today, I played a 20 khz sine wave and the AM effect was even more evident. This issue seems to occur at a range of high frequencies in the audible range - I should run some more tests to determine the actual range for this issue, maybe next time.
   1. USB: 
   2. 
   3. SPDIF:
   4. 
   5. Playback was 20 kHz sine wave with 96 kHz sampling rate for USB and SPDIF from my MBP (96 kHz is limit of SPDIF so I made sure to match it during USB test). Test wave file was generated via Matlab. The M7 jumpers were set for "8xOS" for waveforms above. Also occurs in NOS mode (bypass and not bypass) and at various sample rates. Leads me to suspect issue is isolated to the USB module.
   6. Note, my M7's USB firmware has been updated to the latest version (that I know of) and my unit was produced in August 2014. I think there has been a newer version of the USB module released based on information on Audio-gd's website which may not have this issue, unsure??

 
 
Going forward, looking to get an I2S source soon and re-run tests. In the meantime, I'll be using "8xOS" setting with SPDIF input.
 
Edit:
Note, when I say "NOS" I mean I want to bypass any filtering/interpolation/upsampling in the DAC DSP. I prefer to do any upsampling in the playback PC as I don't believe 44.1 kHz is adequate for undistorted signal reconstruction (please don't confuse signal reconstruction requirements with nyquist rate, I believe 44.1 kHz is sufficient to capture audible bandwidth, but not sufficient for signal reconstruction - zero order hold step waveforms anybody?)

 

[JAGS]

  Interesting to read. So far I have been playing with stopband filter & oversampling only and differences were very little. Right now I use default settings. I will confirm the other settings later and am curious what DSP and PLL will change. Using Bluesound Node I2S streamer (modded by Magna Hifi) with Tentlabs XO.

 
My findings using Bluesound Node HDMI I2S output attached to HDMI M7 I2S input:
1. Oversampling in 1x NOS mode: I could not hear any difference compared to 8x OS mode.
2. PLL Enabled/Disabled: No serious difference, blind test will fail.
3. Filtering to -50dB: More open sound stage but not very "realistic", not my taste.
4. M7 in bypass mode: Very nice, a fraction more laid back but this is no issue in my system. Still very direct and "in your face". I like it.

 

[JAGS]

  So I had some time today to run some tests and measure waveforms with my DSO. Some notes:

1. 1 x OS set via jumper (jumper on IPS0), is not actually 1 x OS (or NOS). Seemed to be ~8x when I played back 44.1 khz files.
2. If you place jumpers on IPS0 AND IPS1 (not documented in online manual) it is 1 x OS (NOS) presumably via DSP with PLL and dithering functionality (as opposed to doing NOS by removing the BYPASS jumper and bypassing DSP completely).
3. NOS mode is limited to 192 kHz input via USB, anything higher resulted in no sound. And 96 kHz via SPDIF, anything higher via SPDIF resulted in distortion. As a result, I think I'll be avoiding NOS mode for now with the M7 as 192 kHz is not sufficient to reconstruct smooth waveforms > 10 kHz. I may try again when I get an I2S source.
4. Just as an FYI, the analogue filter on the output is -3 dB at 40 kHz (from Kingwa).
5. I highly recommend AVOIDING the M7's USB input, there is something screwy with it. Previous tests with square waves resulted in considerable amplitude modulation distortion. As part of my tests today, I played a 20 khz sine wave and the AM effect was even more evident. This issue seems to occur at a range of high frequencies in the audible range - I should run some more tests to determine the actual range for this issue, maybe next time.
   1. Playback was 20 kHz sine wave with 96 kHz sampling rate for USB and SPDIF from my MBP (96 kHz is limit of SPDIF so I made sure to match it during USB test). Test wave file was generated via Matlab. The M7 jumpers were set for "8xOS" for waveforms above. Also occurs in NOS mode and at various sample rates.
   2. Note, my M7's USB firmware has been updated to the latest version (that I know of) and my unit was produced in August 2014. I think there has been a newer version of the USB module released based on information on Audio-gd's website which may not have this issue, unsure??

 
 
Going forward, looking to get an I2S source soon and re-run tests. In the meantime, I'll be using "8xOS" setting with SPDIF input.
 
Edit:
Note, when I say "NOS" I mean I want to bypass any filtering/interpolation/upsampling in the DAC DSP. I prefer to do any upsampling in the playback PC as I don't believe 44.1 kHz is adequate for undistorted signal reconstruction (please don't confuse signal reconstruction requirements with nyquist rate, I believe 44.1 kHz is sufficient to capture audible bandwidth, but not sufficient for signal reconstruction - zero order hold step waveforms anybody?)

 
This is very useful information as I was actually planning to do some measuring myself.
 
- NOS jumper settings might explain why I did not hear any difference compared to 8x OS
- My Bluesound Node with I2S upsamples the signal to 192kHz/24bit to I2S input of M7. In NOS mode - DSP OFF - it sounds the best.
 
I will do same test by placing jumpers on IPS0 AND IPS1 to set it to 1xNOS with DSP enabled.

 

[Articnoise]

   

 

I find it kind of strange that the NOS mode is limited to 192 kHz input via USB. On the AGD site it is stated as a 384K Asynchronous Transfer USB-32 Module. Also that the jumper (jumper on IPS0) is not NOS. Maybe better to ask Kingwa to clarify about this. 

 

I heard difference then I used the jumper on IPS0, but don’t know if it actually is was oversampling or not. Anyway the sound different and better in many ways with jumper on IPS0, 90 dB Stopband and PLLEN bypassed IMO. 

 

[riffer]

.....

1. 1. Note, my M7's USB firmware has been updated to the latest version (that I know of) and my unit was produced in August 2014. I think there has been a newer version of the USB module released based on information on Audio-gd's website which may not have this issue, unsure??

 
 
....

 
What version of the firmware do you have?
 
I know what you are saying; there is all kinds of confusion over the USB modules and firmware.
 
Thanks for the measurements, we need more of this.

 

[JAGS]

   

I find it kind of strange that the NOS mode is limited to 192 kHz input via USB. On the AGD site it is stated as a 384K Asynchronous Transfer USB-32 Module. Also that the jumper (jumper on IPS0) is not NOS. Maybe better to ask Kingwa to clarify about this. 

 

I heard difference then I used the jumper on IPS0, but don’t know if it actually is was oversampling or not. Anyway the sound different and better in many ways with jumper on IPS0, 90 dB Stopband and PLLEN bypassed IMO. 

 
Agree, let Kingwa confirm / explain the jumper settings and also the USB module/firmware latest version as well as the measurement from "aive" before jumping into conclusions

 

[DACLadder]

I tried different jumper settings for months and finally went back to the default settings.  I got better bass and more focused soundstage.  With PLL bypass you need a low jitter source for best results.  YMMV but give them a try!   Never know what you will discover.
 
On HDMI I2S use the best cable you can afford plus shorter cables have lower jitter.   The best deal I have found on quality cables is a Wireworld Startlight 5.2 (red).  The 5.2 is twice removed from the current 7 series of WW cables and if you can find them heavily discounted.  You can pick up 1-ft Starlight 5.2s for about $40 US.   1-ft is really short if it works for your setup.  Just Google search "wireworld starlight 5.2 hdmi closeout".  The Startlight 5.2 HDMI compares favorably to the Silver Starlight 6.   The Ultraviolet 5.2 HDMI is not as good IMO.   But I use a Ultraviolet USB cable and is plenty good. 

 

[aive]

I suspect the weaknesses of the DAC are its clock and DSP - only suspicions at this stage will confirm when I get an i2s source and re measure. I'm fairly stingy so I'm trying to improve/bypass these aspects of the DAC DIY style rather than buying a Yggy (maybe next year if funds allow)...

The USB firmware I'm using is latest one mentioned in the M7 firmware thread (think the download link in the thread has stopped working though).

I'm dissapointed in the USB issue (which may just be an issue with my unit). I've been using USB since I got the unit and I've always thought there was an issue with my ears as the soundstage always seemed slightly left of centre. After switching to SPDIF I'm relieved to find that the soundstage is in the centre and more importantly my ears are fine - trust your ears ppl! Using speakers now btw.

Before I did the tests I did ask Kingwa about the 1x jumper setting (whether it still went through DSP filtering) and he confirmed it is NOS - maybe it's just a typo on the website?

The USB module actually connects to an i2s input on the DAC DSP board which is only rated to 192khz as per the manual. I can see higher sampling rates available to me when I poll the USB module but as I said, selecting them results in no sound outputted. You would think it should work in NOS though..... Will try again in future.