[Currawong]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1UP /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm not saying they're the same at all - what could be the same as that loon opening multiple accounts and shilling with that infuriating and bipolar writing-style, pretending to be an owner for whom english wasn't their second language? But I'll ask another question - aren't we at the point where Audio GD should be looking to get their own forum with MOTD status? I'd also feel a bit more comfortable understanding what Currawong and Pricklely Peete's relationship is with the company. I would simply appreciate some clarity here as it looks fuzzy to someone who's not read each one of those mega-threads in which they contribute heavily.

Shotgun summary: Audio-gd became known to us through the Zero thread, when someone found out he made HDAMs (discrete opamps). Since his customer service was excellent (he replaced a few $k of Tyson's ordered gear for nix no-questions-asked when couriers stole it) and his gear didn't look like it was going to burn up people's headphones and fail randomly like the Zero, I suggested/started the Compass project.

I have no relation beyond being a customer, and a happy one at that. I think Kingwa (the owner) designs good gear and is an honest person, much like the other small companies that are well-known here that I've had the pleasure of dealing with. I throw the odd suggestion Kingwa's way, such as "Don't use sticky labels on the front of expensive gear" when I see issues crop up, and he asked me what the correct pin-outs were for balanced headphones. Since he seems keen to design Head-fi gear, I pointed him towards Jude about sponsorship. I emailed him recently asking if he's going ahead with that and he hasn't decided. I guess it depends whether Head-fi'ers want him to design more things. However, he doesn't speak English (his emails can require a couple of reads to understand), and HF loads very slowly through the Great Firewall of China. Just a thought though, Woo, and Meier aren't premier sponsors, yet are well-known here. If Kingwa is going to design and make more products for Head-fi, he should consider buying a sponsored thread at the least IMO, as others have. However, yes, he has gained a small legion of fanboys who'll post about whatever he designs anyway. Welcome to Head-fi.

Personally, I have little tolerance for BS (though sticky labels on the front of my purchases don't bother me much

). There seems to be one mentality among people for hype, as well as one that calls everyone who says anything excessively positive about a product a shill (fanboys of anti-fanboyism?). I'm for keeping it real, and understand each point of view. It's getting tiresome though, like the HD-800 threads. The most useful thing people should IMO do is email Audio-gd with their concerns (or suggestions). That goes for discussion about any company though.

For me, my next interest at the moment is in DIY, as I just got new tips for my soldering iron and I just discovered what Grados are like with tubes. Soldering is also more fun than having my motivations called into question every other week.

 

[Omega]

I am a happy owner of an older version of the Beresford DAC, mk5, I think. It is a good product for the price.

However, I think the source of the frustration is rooted in the fact that it is very affordable, and thus very prone to being a new addict's first DAC purchase. "So awesome! Better than everything else!" is easy to say when your experience is based on a very limited sample size and breadth.

Head-fi is like a club, with all the good and bad things that exclusive membership entails. Some people just want to be a part of the group, even if they are the annoying loud mouth.

 

[1UP]

Currawong, I appreciate the history and wanted you to know I had no issue with any individuals posting about the product line. Your point about several other prominent manufacturers not being sponsors is well taken.

 

[boomana]

Iirc, there were definitely cases of shilling with Beresford, rather successful shilling I might add, since the hype-type posts continue rather than more conservative, critical-evaluation-type impressions. It makes it difficult to even guess who might be a shill vs. who might be an enthusiastic first-time owner, since the latter is usually just following-the-leader in a style of posting impressions that became a norm awhile ago.

The Audio-gd guys seem to be fans rather than shills, but many owners (not all) have adopted a posting style that has a "club" feel to it, which ranges from benign ("come join us") to a prideful, defensive stance ("you're with us or against us") and can be fiercely defensive and antagonist towards even legitimate questions or criticisms raised by other members. It's that more extreme style of posting which actually raises suspicions of shilling: a few members continually post about their talks and influencing emails with Kingwa, but then attack other members who question the affiliation they themselves announce near daily. What's a casual, but interested onlooker to think?

The Phoenix is an amp I'm interested in, but am losing interest daily. Other than a couple posters (thank you), that thread is a garbage heap of superlative fluff and self-important twaddle. Dare ask anyone to tone down the crapastic posting because you really want information, not just hyperbolic enthusiasm, you're shot down. Dare two or more members request same, you're labeled "a pile-on." Right now that amp could be the best thing around, and I don't much care to take a $1000 risk and try. I have very little real information to go on (though some members are posting informatively, it's getting lost in the twaddle already), and I'm uncomfortable with the idea of putting $1000 or more down on a product where transparency of business connections or calls for responsible, informative impressions are met with anger. Though I'll wait for more members to hear this amp and hopeful add more content, right now I'm getting suspicious of almost everyone posting. The Compass threads are just as bad or even worse. It feels like shilling, even if it's not.

Remember how only a few months ago, the number of Little Dot threads could nearly take up the whole first page? Where are they now? Hmmmm.

Folks can and do level the same accusations when any new product comes out from rsa, headamp, sennheiser, grado, just to name some that attract real fanboys/girls. The difference is that the level of discourse in most of those threads invites critical evaluation and comparison pretty early on, and outrageous fluff posts by members are usually called out for what they are by other members fairly quickly rather than being defended as "but it's his opinion, so leave him alone." Perhaps if beresford or audio-gd product owners began inviting higher levels of discourse, and challenging some of the more "shill-ish" behavior (this has already, thank goodness, begun in the phoenix thread), accusations and suspicions will be kept to a minimum or disappear completely.

I have a lot of mixed thoughts about the beresford and audio-gd threads, and similar ones that came before (Little Dot, Zero). On one hand, I hope they're great products, and I also don't begrudge members posting enthusiastically, even if a bit over the top (who hasn't done that at least a few times?); but on the other hand, some threads and some products invite scrutiny, and if the adopters of those products, especially early adopters, continue to handle skepticism regarding those products and requests for transparency concerning business affiliations with the kind of animosity I've seen lately (currawong, btw, has handled things quite appropriately as far as I've seen), the end result will always be more accusations and, in my case, a level of distaste, which makes me more suspicious, not less.

 

[1UP]

You've said it all, man; more eloquently than I could ever hope to!

Peace to all. Going to change my sig.

 

[ecclesand]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1UP /img/forum/go_quote.gif You've said it all, man; more eloquently than I could ever hope to! Peace to all. Going to change my sig.

Woman. Vicky is of the female persuasion.

 

[jude]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omega /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am a happy owner of an older version of the Beresford DAC, mk5, I think. It is a good product for the price. However, I think the source of the frustration is rooted in the fact that it is very affordable, and thus very prone to being a new addict's first DAC purchase. "So awesome! Better than everything else!" is easy to say when your experience is based on a very limited sample size and breadth. Head-fi is like a club, with all the good and bad things that exclusive membership entails. Some people just want to be a part of the group, even if they are the annoying loud mouth.

The comments about Beresford may go a little deeper than that. What some may be referring to with respect Beresford can be found here.

 

[Born2bwire]

Ha, this reminds me of all the rage with Ray Samuels vs. Singlepower products years back. I also remember when the Little Dots first started coming out. Either way, taking things with a healthy dose of criticism is always recommended. Fortunately, the majority of shilling should never be truly successful other than generating noise. Most products can be ordered on a 30 day trial basis and there are a variety of meets that most of us can attend to audition gear. I would only worry about products that do not come with a reliable 30 day guarantee, otherwise the only thing stopping you from sticking with a bad product (or overpriced) is yourself.

In the end though, just let things ride out the course. Usually you can see how these products or companies really are by their longevity. Look at the fiascos that eventually came out of drewd, Xin, Singlepower, etc. and really with all of them you could generally see them coming.

 

[haloxt]

I only just realized that audio-gd threads are almost always on the top of the amp forum, my condolences to people searching for amp threads other than audio-gd ones. I've been looking forward to a sponsor audio-gd forum for a few months now because I know some people didn't like the spotlight audio-gd was getting from the compass thread, but unfortunately it has yet to happen and I'll try to post less until it does happen so people don't think I'm shilling. I admit and do apologize that I have a very bad habit of only posting in audio-gd threads because I am a new audiophile and don't own or know brands. Likewise I usually only post on Ultrasone threads because they are the only brand I own or know.

I think that both people who are feeling paranoid about audio-gd and people who are fanatics of audio-gd would be made happy by a sponsor thread where fans can talk about audio-gd to their heart's content without others suspecting or accusing them of shilling.

And I have to complain, the way people have been trying to bring up "legitimate questions or criticisms" on the Phoenix thread need to learn some common courtesy. Just going up to someone and saying "You sound like a shill" isn't the most effective way to raise the level of discourse.

 

[karthur]

Audio-Gd is the dogs bollocks. That is why people post about it.

Edit: What I mean is that Audio-Gd is providing good affordable products and backing it up with good service, that is why people are talking about them.

 

[boomana]

Quote:

Originally Posted by haloxt /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think that both people who are feeling paranoid about audio-gd and people who are fanatics of audio-gd would be made happy by a sponsor thread where fans can talk about audio-gd to their heart's content without others suspecting or accusing them of shilling.

Sponsor forums are paid for by the sponsor, and if Kingwa wanted one, I'm pretty sure he could make arrangements to have one.

Quote:

And I have to complain, the way people have been trying to bring up "legitimate questions or criticisms" on the Phoenix thread need to learn some common courtesy. Just going up to someone and saying "You sound like a shill" isn't the most effective way to raise the level of discourse.

I don't recall seeing any comments accusing members of shilling at all in that thread related to the Phoenix. One member mentioned that another was a seller of high-end cables, and since the conversation at that time was about expensive cables and the Phoenix, that was a pretty fair heads-up to readers, and a good call. Find me one post where anyone has even used the word shill in that thread or called a member out for shilling for audio-gd. What I've seen is exactly what I mentioned in my post above. Fanboys acting as if they're victims and accusing others (as you just did), including calling CanJam a conspiracy because there were no products reviewed, and telling people to "****" about mentioning the problems with stickers, etc. It would be better for audio-gd fans to acknowledge the reality that the behavior of a couple audio-gd "gurus" (discussing their input into product development and near-daily communication with Kingwa) does raise suspicions, and accept that a high level of transparency is in order, including fielding questions without slinging arrows. If nothing is amiss, fine, but to act all indignant and cry foul is exactly what I was talking about in my above post. It serves no one well, not fans of the product, not head-fi in general, and especially not Kingwa.

btw, I don't think you're a shill, and I also don't think you need to stop posting about the product. That's just silly. Chill on the victim stance, though. That's equally silly.

 

[karthur]

This whole thread is ill-conceived. These forums are to discuss products, which is exactly what has been going on in those forums *especially* the audio-gd ones. If some people don't like it, then they shouldn't read those threads! very simple. Y'all should be welcoming enthusiastic new Headfiers. Shills will be found out and dealt with in due course as always!

 

[haloxt]

What I mean by the statement that you people say "you sound like a shill" is what is implied. You yourself said in this thread you think "transparency of business connections or calls for responsible, informative impressions are met with anger". And you say in this thread that the Phoenix thread has some "'shill-ish' behavior". You and many other people have expressed such opinions on the Phoenix thread but are unable to deal with it civilly on the Phoenix thread instead you make a thread like this. And I laugh at your "victim stance" thing, you're the one who says "I'm uncomfortable with the idea of putting $1000 or more down on a product where transparency of business connections or calls for responsible, informative impressions are met with anger." Your choice not to buy the Phoenix shouldn't be blamed on what you consider to be fanboyism. You're trying to be a victim by saying that you are losing interest in the Phoenix daily because of what we've done. The animosity is mostly coming from people criticizing first impressions.

 

[boomana]

If I'm deciding to buy or not buy the Phoenix, or any other product for that matter, especially one I can't try beforehand, I think it is important to weigh business or personal affiliations (if any) between members touting a product and the company making it, and I do pay attention to who is saying what when there is reason to pay attention. If any previously unknown product, whether made in America or in an foreign country, suddenly shows up on the scene being touted as the next best thing, I want to know what "best" means, who is saying it, what their frames of reference are, why they are saying it, what their connections to the company (if any) may be, etc. Would you rather everyone just drink the koolaid (even if it's tasty) without questioning?

Xin, SinglePower, LaRocco, Storm.....all made good products (I've owned two) and then burned a lot of people with fanboys defending up until the end (and these are only recent examples). I'm not saying Kingwa is anything like these people, but for a small Chinese company to burst on the scene basically carried on the shoulders of a couple members, I think it's irresponsible not to ask questions, not to demand transparency, not to challenge suspicious behavior, and if you think it's harsh, sorry. As born2bewire said, if everything is on the up and up, and the products are great and stay that way, longevity will, in itself, prove the case.

As for reacting with anger, I think some posts in this and other threads make my point for me.

 

[haloxt]

There are lots of head-fiers who are happy and very few (if any) unhappy with the compass so I don't think it's accurate to say it was all done by a few head-fiers. A few head-fiers keep getting accused of possible affiliation with audio-gd which is the worst way to alienate someone from the forums. The many happy compass owners might try to vouch for audio-gd or those being accused of fanboyism but it would just lead to more accusations of fanboyism and feelings of resentment. If you believe there may be member ties to audio-gd, just ask nicely and get a response, if the response is mean, don't stoop to their level just take it up in stride and not feel resentment. And if you distrust what they say, that's fine, let time decide if audio-gd is good and buy later if you want. All in all I wish people would just try to be civil if they have their own opinion to share, not building up their resentment or splurting it out meanly like many people have done in response to ipodpj's overly excited impressions.