[AC1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamZuf good comparison, AC1! when i upgraded to the Mensa DI/O, the fullness of the mids went away, or at least to a point where it's not a problem. i understand that yours is a Mensa too. what is your history with the DI/O? are you familiar with 7V (for those who are wondering, i'm talking about the stock output, usually changed to 2V) modded units? can you approve the drop in the "problematic" characteristics? i found the 7V stock output (with different modifications) to suit the CD3000 and ER-4X/S, which unlike the omegaII, are relatively bright heaphones.

Ah, this was a thread that actually had an error in it where it would not update as a new thread when something new was posted. Good to see it works now and you guys have found it informative.

Hi Adam,
We have discussed before concerning the DI/O. I was the one with the Mensa with ERS work, power filtering, and a special isolation device for the DI/O from K Works. Sorry it has been taken out of my profile since then.

The DI/O in Mensa form and especially with improvements in the reduction of noise with ERS has always been a bit more mellower up top compared to other players, where even the Prima is more lively there.

 

[AC1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glassman can you show us the bottom side of the digital and analog boards? there must be a few smt ICs.. I'm interested.. 4x upsampling can indicate the use of ASRC chips rather then digital filters, because they upsample 8x usually..

Sorry Glassman, there unfortunately is not a easy way to get under the boards since the clearance is very low, and they are not really easily removed from their plastic clips.


Quote:

Originally Posted by minya Great review, AC1! Very helpful. How much does the Prima go for? edit: That sure is an ugly player though! - Chris

Thanks, glad it was helpful.

It goes for new, I believe, $2200 for one with single and balanced outputs now.

Speaking of its looks, this version has an interchangeable faceplate. I have a black faceplate as well.


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Originally Posted by taoster nice description on both players. I agree with a lot of what you've said about both players. I am getting less impressed with my DIO for the same reason you've found it, that soft sound and mid-range coloration. The Prima was referenced to pair with tube amps i believe. It could be my setup/dio but it's way overrated as a giant killer. I am still going to hold on to it for a computer setup in the future.

The softness is what eventually makes it not as intersting to listen to, where the over-fullness in the lower-mids, contributes to a sense of detachment to instruments since it is not porportioned correctly.
However, somebody who has had experience with my DI/O and uses a very potent pre-amp in a speaker system did not have the same softness issues as I have had in my headphone systems, where the DI/O has impressed other audiophiles as well.



Right now the Prima is coming back from Great Northern Sound with new tubes, but the it is also not my primary playback anymore. The Audio Logic Dac (paired with an even better digital cable and transport) really takes that type of smooth, full sound to a whole other level, in comparison it makes the Prima sound like flat, broken 80's digital. That is saying quite a lot! (but of course at a much greater cost)

 

[AdamZuf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AC1 Hi Adam, We have discussed before concerning the DI/O. I was the one with the Mensa with ERS work, power filtering, and a special isolation device for the DI/O from K Works. Sorry it has been taken out of my profile since then.

i didn't forget you

what i'm asking (and maybe a bit out of the topic) is to know if you had a DI/O with 7V before you had the Mensa, and what differences did you hear, in regard of the lower frequency "problem".

 

[AdamZuf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AC1 The softness is what eventually makes it not as intersting to listen to, where the over-fullness in the lower-mids, contributes to a sense of detachment to instruments since it is not porportioned correctly.

you meen, like an added layer which doesn't become a part of the true body of the instrument?

Quote:

However, somebody who has had experience with my DI/O and uses a very potent pre-amp in a speaker system did not have the same softness issues as I have had in my headphone systems, where the DI/O has impressed other audiophiles as well.

it's all a matter of system matching, once again

different drivers respond differently, and i guess that some can integrate and use the hump positively as a part of the instrument's sound and balance the system, while in the other system it will sound fake. the difference of the way these kind of things behave in speakers vs. headphones is quite big!

 

[AC1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamZuf i didn't forget you what i'm asking (and maybe a bit out of the topic) is to know if you had a DI/O with 7V before you had the Mensa, and what differences did you hear, in regard of the lower frequency "problem".

I did use the DI/O unmodded for quite awhile before it got its first upgrade from Bolder. Hm, I would say it was probably less obvious since everything was less magnified as well with no modifications but definitely still a trait it still had.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamZuf you meen, like an added layer which doesn't become a part of the true body of the instrument? it's all a matter of system matching, once again different drivers respond differently, and i guess that some can integrate and use the hump positively as a part of the instrument's sound and balance the system, while in the other system it will sound fake. the difference of the way these kind of things behave in speakers vs. headphones is quite big!

Yes, that is a good way of putting it. The layer also has the effect of obscuring detail since it will bleed into things. The Prima does a much better job of intergrating everything to a whole, while the Audio Logic is able make it sound even more solid and coherent.

Having a well powered pre-amp seems to definitely help the DI/O out in that respect, where I have not been able to find a headphone amp that does so.

 

[AdamZuf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AC1 I did use the DI/O unmodded for quite awhile before it got its first upgrade from Bolder. Hm, I would say it was probably less obvious since everything was less magnified as well with no modifications but definitely still a trait it still had.

very different experience then mine! interesting..
BTW, i had the chance to mess with 2 units at the same time, so it's not about a particular unit, it's more about my gear and hearing.
Quote:

Having a well powered pre-amp seems to definitely help the DI/O out in that respect, where I have not been able to find a headphone amp that does so.

did you hear it? can that pre-amp drive headphones, so we might have some directioning if the issue is the power of the pre-amp or the difference in response of headphones/speakers?
did you compare your DI/O with the other sources with speakers?

what i was thinking about speakers (and if you notice that most of the DI/O fans are speaker users) is that this layer we are talking about might be interprated as a certain fullness that might play a role only in what we percieve as the resonance of the room's acoustics (=combines smoothly with them), and to a lesser extent as an intruder to the true sound of the instruments. can this be true?

taking into consideration that unlike headphones, speakers are responsive to a change in the environment and to placing (in order to fine tune), it might be that the reasons that the DI/O ain't an excellent source for some headphones are less valid then other qualities of the DI/O with speakers, but with headphones these other qualities can be masked. can this also be true?

 

[AC1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamZuf very different experience then mine! interesting.. BTW, i had the chance to mess with 2 units at the same time, so it's not about a particular unit, it's more about my gear and hearing. did you hear it? can that pre-amp drive headphones, so we might have some directioning if the issue is the power of the pre-amp or the difference in response of headphones/speakers? did you compare your DI/O with the other sources with speakers? what i was thinking about speakers (and if you notice that most of the DI/O fans are speaker users) is that this layer we are talking about might be interprated as a certain fullness that might play a role only in what we percieve as the resonance of the room's acoustics (=combines smoothly with them), and to a lesser extent as an intruder to the true sound of the instruments. can this be true? taking into consideration that unlike headphones, speakers are responsive to a change in the environment and to placing (in order to fine tune), it might be that the reasons that the DI/O ain't an excellent source for some headphones are less valid then other qualities of the DI/O with speakers, but with headphones these other qualities can be masked. can this also be true?

Have not heard it since he lives on the other coast. However he has had many sources go through his place and he does not notice the softness of the DI/O. I believe it has to do more with the "power" of the pre-amp rathar than a headphone vs speakers aspect of it.
Yes, I would agree that with the ability to adjust dampening in your room, placement, etc that they are more flexible in tuning the tonality of a system. In a speaker system, it could be possible that the layer could be used as something like resonance or ambient detail, though the obscuring of detail will probably still exist. People who have not heard the type of fullness in a source might find it very pleasing.
I do not believe that headphones "mask" any qualities that speaker systems can reveal. Each has certain qualities just like different components have different qualitites, so I would say that it is possible to have a speaker system reveal the same things about the DI/O as headphones. I just have not found a headphone system that "helps" the DI/O out in areas that it needs. Doesn't mean it does not exist, just have not been able to accomplish it.

 

[taoster]

I been listening to the DIO for a long time now and I am still unsure whether I prefer it to the Arcam CD72. They are definitely very different sounding machines, the DIO seems to have a soft blur filter applied over the music and as such I do found myself using it more often.
The sounds gets softened and merges coherently with much of the jaggedness removed. Singular instruments and voices attain beauty much like a soft filter mask in photoshop, removing much of the uglier artifact but complicated arrangement gets confused and lost. The almost normalised frequency makes the DIO easier to listen to, making the CD72 harsh sounding by comparison.

final verdict, because i do have both sources, rather than complementing they oppose, neither seems good enough to my ear.

Hearing it both on the speaker and headpone, there seems to be a more obvious difference in the speaker setup too.