[Malcolm Riverside]

Hi everyone!

I am interested in upgrading my LCD-X to either the LCD-4 or the Abyss Phi CC and finally get my TOTL headphone.

My main tastes are power metal and electronica but obviously I want a jack of all trades headphone.

Today I had a chance to compare the LCD-4 to my LCD-X using my own equipment.

The guy who is offering to sell them said that they were barely used and didn't even break in yet.

I sent to serial number to Audeze to check the date of manufacture.

It was Macbook pro 16 inch - Tidal Hifi / Qobuz - Objective dac - SMSL SP200.

Songs I tested were:

Hammer of the gods - Freedom call.
Gunman - Orden Ogan.
Hardwired - Metallica.
Feed the wolf - Breaking Benjamin
Limit to your love - James Blake

I have to say that I am really underwhelmed by what I heard, I hope it is because of my equipment and the lack of break in.

There weren't any noticeable differences between the LCD-X and the LCD-4 in terms of detail retreival, separation, They sounded very similar.

I did notice 2 things:

The LCD-4 had more bass - like 30%-35% more if I need to rate it.

The LCD-4 had a smaller soundstage and sounded more closed.

Other than that they were very similar - Voices, Insturments, separation sounded very close between the two.

When I switched from the LCD-4 to the LCD-X the LCD-X did sound a bit muddy but again the difference wasn't substantial.

To my ears the LCD-4 did not even come close to costing more than twice the LCD-X.

I am now afraid that the Abyss Phi CC isn't going to impress me either.

Again I really hope that it's because of my equipment, And mainly my DAC but I am skeptical of how much can they improve since I read that smsl sp 200 should be sufficient for them.

I was thinking of getting a Chord hugo TT2 in the future to just end my chase after dacs and amplifiers.

In your opinion will it make a substantial difference to really put the LCD-4 in it's own league.

If I can demonstrate what I want and didn't get with the LCD-X and with the LCD-4: In the song gunman by orden ogan in 0:45 there are fast drums, With both the X and the 4 the drums sounded muddy and not very detailed.
I want my next pair of headphones to expose more details.

Can you guys please test this with your system and see how it sounds?

Thanks a lot for your help!

Interesting dilemma you’ve got there! I’ve heard good things about that SMSL amp but if it’s anything like it’s older brother the Drop THX 789–which I have—then it is underpowered for bringing out the full glory of the LCD-4. I find that my THX amp gets loud with the LCD-4’s but the presentation is very polite, and the LCD-4 is a thunderous beast of a headphone that needs a similarly beastly amp to bring out its best. Even the LCD-X—efficient though it is—responds really well to a refined, powerful amp. I was staggered to hear all that I was missing with my LCD-X as I upgraded amps over the time that I had those cans. I’ve seen amp/dac makers demo rigs with the LCD-X that were worth two or three times more than those cans (used to) cost! So they will reward further investment in your setup. Also, you’re on to something with thinking about upgrading your dac. The best headphones in the world can sound good on a meh dac, but whatever headphones you have will not sound their best until you upgrade your dac. Especially if it’s detail and speed you’re after. If you want that from Audeze headphones especially, then you have to bring it with your components.

 

[MachineGunz]

Thank you for the help everyone!

So here is the story - The guy who is offering to sell the LCD-4 is flying in 2 days so I need to decide if I am getting them or not.

He is asking for 2600$, He said that he barely used them and that they didn't even break in.

I contacted Audeze, The headphones were made on the 25.06.19.


Here is the FR graph:

Spoiler: Frequency Response Graph - LCD 4 - 25.06.19

What do you think?

I really want to get the Chord hugo tt2 in the future but it will take me a few good months to be able to afford it and I really don't want to invest so much.

funnily enough someone in my country is selling it for 5000$ but there is now way I can afford it right now.

I am also a bit afraid of the different revisions - Many people swear that the sound quality of Audeze headphones are changing depending on the year you bought them.

The LCD 4 definitely can be EQ-ed to sound more natural. It's just tricky to do on your own. My LCD 2 sounds crazy good with EQ and there is no detail loss to speak of. I can't even imagine what can be done with the LCD 4.

It might be your choice of songs though. A lot of acoustic and rock recordings of a certain era are somewhat grainy and not that detailed or natural sounding. You might need to demo more songs to get a better idea of their performance. Or it is in fact an older model of the LCD 4 which is inferior to the 2016-2018 revision of the same model.

The extra bass you hear is actually not measurable directly. It's just that the LCD 4 has more dynamic impact than most planars. It has virtually identical bass in terms of FR to its cheaper siblings.

I see, So the main difference for me was the bass response, And a smaller soundstage on the LCD-4.

Other than that they were very similar.

the lcd-4 is dramatically more detailed than the X and has a larger soundstage and better bass so I suspect something is amiss...

I did hear more bass and it indeed was deeper.

The soundstage sounded smaller on the LCD-4 and the LCD 4 sounded less airy and less open.

I liked the extra bass impact but I honestly prefer the more open and airy sound of the LCD-X. The LCD-4 sounded closed and a bit suffocating.

I have both the X and the 4, and on my rigs, the results of the head to head between those two yield entirely different results from yours (the X is definitely not a bad-sounding headphone, but in soundstage width/depth, detail-retrieval, and bass response, not to mention the sumptuousness of the mids, the LCD-4 comfortably comes out ahead) Could it be that your amp has sufficient juice to drive the X, but is coming up a bit short for the 4? That could be what is happening here, in which case you would simply be blaming the 4 for the "sins" of the amp. The LCD-X has an impedance of 20 Ohms, as opposed to the 200 Ohms of the LCD-4. That could produce a world of difference in sonic results if the 4 isn't getting enough juice as compared to the X which can be driven quite comfortably even by an ipad or computer without an amp.

If you want to really get a fair assessment of what the 4 can do, then you need to feed it with an amp that does it justice. Just saying.

I really hope that the lack of break in for the headphones and my equipment is the problem here.

I plan to get a chord hugo tt2 in the future but for now I will have to use my current equipment - The objective dac and the smsl-sp200.

Regarding the amplifier - People are actually saying it does a good job hadnling the Abyss phi TC and someone here posted that the smsl sp200 with the chord hugo 2 is enough for him.

I assume the amp can't get 100% out of the LCD-4 but I don't think the X and the 4 should be that close with it.

Not only will the 4 benefit from the extra juice a powerful amp has but speed makes a difference. I have the LCD4 and Abyss TC. My amps are the Woo WA5 tube amp and the HeadAmp GSX mk2. The Woo has a bigger soundstage and the GSX is noticeably faster. The LCD4 makes this evident. My LCD2 didn’t really bring this out.

Do you think the Chord hugo tt2 is going to bring everything out of the LCD-4?

My preference is the LCD4 for rock and acoustic. The Abyss for pop and EDM. Neither are bad at the other genres. Just my personal preference. Both are incredible. By far my favorite headphones so far. See my signature for headphones I have owned to get an idea of comparisons I have been able to make.

I sent you a PM regarding this, Thanks!

Interesting dilemma you’ve got there! I’ve heard good things about that SMSL amp but if it’s anything like it’s older brother the Drop THX 789–which I have—then it is underpowered for bringing out the full glory of the LCD-4. I find that my THX amp gets loud with the LCD-4’s but the presentation is very polite, and the LCD-4 is a thunderous beast of a headphone that needs a similarly beastly amp to bring out its best. Even the LCD-X—efficient though it is—responds really well to a refined, powerful amp. I was staggered to hear all that I was missing with my LCD-X as I upgraded amps over the time that I had those cans. I’ve seen amp/dac makers demo rigs with the LCD-X that were worth two or three times more than those cans (used to) cost! So they will reward further investment in your setup. Also, you’re on to something with thinking about upgrading your dac. The best headphones in the world can sound good on a meh dac, but whatever headphones you have will not sound their best until you upgrade your dac. Especially if it’s detail and speed you’re after. If you want that from Audeze headphones especially, then you have to bring it with your components.

Thank you very much for the input.

I agree that the smsl sp200 can't give me 100% out of the LCD-4 but I really don't think the 4 and the X should sound so similar.

I forgot that I also have the Schiit Modi 3 but I find that the ODAC and the Modi 3 are very similar.

I was thinking about getting the chord hugo 2 but I am now leaning for the chord hugo tt2 to be my totl dac and amp so that I won't be chasing other equipment.

 

[801evan]

Interesting dilemma you’ve got there! I’ve heard good things about that SMSL amp but if it’s anything like it’s older brother the Drop THX 789–which I have—then it is underpowered for bringing out the full glory of the LCD-4. I find that my THX amp gets loud with the LCD-4’s but the presentation is very polite, and the LCD-4 is a thunderous beast of a headphone that needs a similarly beastly amp to bring out its best. Even the LCD-X—efficient though it is—responds really well to a refined, powerful amp. I was staggered to hear all that I was missing with my LCD-X as I upgraded amps over the time that I had those cans. I’ve seen amp/dac makers demo rigs with the LCD-X that were worth two or three times more than those cans (used to) cost! So they will reward further investment in your setup. Also, you’re on to something with thinking about upgrading your dac. The best headphones in the world can sound good on a meh dac, but whatever headphones you have will not sound their best until you upgrade your dac. Especially if it’s detail and speed you’re after. If you want that from Audeze headphones especially, then you have to bring it with your components.

I use the smsl sp200 amp with the lcd4 and it's very powerful. I tried even the SPL xe and I got pretty much the same output quality. If anything, you need to clean up your power quality with power conditioners.

 

[kid vic]

Thank you for the help everyone!

So here is the story - The guy who is offering to sell the LCD-4 is flying in 2 days so I need to decide if I am getting them or not.

He is asking for 2600$, He said that he barely used them and that they didn't even break in.

I contacted Audeze, The headphones were made on the 25.06.19.


Here is the FR graph:

Spoiler: Frequency Response Graph - LCD 4 - 25.06.19

What do you think?

I really want to get the Chord hugo tt2 in the future but it will take me a few good months to be able to afford it and I really don't want to invest so much.

funnily enough someone in my country is selling it for 5000$ but there is now way I can afford it right now.

I am also a bit afraid of the different revisions - Many people swear that the sound quality of Audeze headphones are changing depending on the year you bought them.





I see, So the main difference for me was the bass response, And a smaller soundstage on the LCD-4.

Other than that they were very similar.





I did hear more bass and it indeed was deeper.

The soundstage sounded smaller on the LCD-4 and the LCD 4 sounded less airy and less open.

I liked the extra bass impact but I honestly prefer the more open and airy sound of the LCD-X. The LCD-4 sounded closed and a bit suffocating.



I really hope that the lack of break in for the headphones and my equipment is the problem here.

I plan to get a chord hugo tt2 in the future but for now I will have to use my current equipment - The objective dac and the smsl-sp200.

Regarding the amplifier - People are actually saying it does a good job hadnling the Abyss phi TC and someone here posted that the smsl sp200 with the chord hugo 2 is enough for him.

I assume the amp can't get 100% out of the LCD-4 but I don't think the X and the 4 should be that close with it.





Do you think the Chord hugo tt2 is going to bring everything out of the LCD-4?



I sent you a PM regarding this, Thanks!



Thank you very much for the input.

I agree that the smsl sp200 can't give me 100% out of the LCD-4 but I really don't think the 4 and the X should sound so similar.

I forgot that I also have the Schiit Modi 3 but I find that the ODAC and the Modi 3 are very similar.

I was thinking about getting the chord hugo 2 but I am now leaning for the chord hugo tt2 to be my totl dac and amp so that I won't be chasing other equipment.

If you are considering Chord products as an upgrade at this time I would say, use the same amp you currently have and buy a used (if possible) Chord Qutest DAC.
The reason being that the Qutest dac will still be TOTL for a few years while you save up to buy a better amp and headphone set. The best front ends (speakers/headphones) will only reveal the upper limits of the source. I suspect that what happened was the LCD-X and LCD-4 showed you the exact limit of your sources capability at this time but the LCD-X is comparatively more forgiving while also being easier to drive.
The qutest should come in at a lower price right now than that used LCD-4 did and you can then spend the surplus on a more powerful amp (think Bryston or GSX). Also, used LCD-4s are generally that same price here on Head-fi pretty frequently so with some patience another one will come up.

My experience has been that upgrading/changing front ends makes the biggest OVERALL difference but upgrading source and later amping raises the minimum qualitative level.

 

[johnzz4]

If you are considering Chord products as an upgrade at this time I would say, use the same amp you currently have and buy a used (if possible) Chord Qutest DAC.
The reason being that the Qutest dac will still be TOTL for a few years while you save up to buy a better amp and headphone set. The best front ends (speakers/headphones) will only reveal the upper limits of the source. I suspect that what happened was the LCD-X and LCD-4 showed you the exact limit of your sources capability at this time but the LCD-X is comparatively more forgiving while also being easier to drive.
The qutest should come in at a lower price right now than that used LCD-4 did and you can then spend the surplus on a more powerful amp (think Bryston or GSX). Also, used LCD-4s are generally that same price here on Head-fi pretty frequently so with some patience another one will come up.

My experience has been that upgrading/changing front ends makes the biggest OVERALL difference but upgrading source and later amping raises the minimum qualitative level.

I was going to go to my computer to write up something very similar. If you’re not seeing a substantial difference between the X and the 4, then you’re seeing the limitations of your source and amp.

 

[JLoud]

I bought my LCD-4 direct from Audeze on their B-Stock sale last year on Black Friday. They ran the same sale this year. $2500 for the 4 with full warranty. It had a tiny blemish by one of the yokes. You would never see it unless pointed out. With a little patience you can find the 4 used for around $2200 or even as low as $2000. All in nice shape.

 

[801evan]

I was going to go to my computer to write up something very similar. If you’re not seeing a substantial difference between the X and the 4, then you’re seeing the limitations of your source and amp.

Same!!! 4 scales well. X hits a wall. Buying a 4 and a decent amp isn't a magic pill to audio nirvana.

 

[MachineGunz]

I use the smsl sp200 amp with the lcd4 and it's very powerful. I tried even the SPL xe and I got pretty much the same output quality. If anything, you need to clean up your power quality with power conditioners.

That is the issue, From what I know it should drive just fine and give good performance but that wasn't what I was hearing.

The 4 really didn't offer that much over the X.

If you are considering Chord products as an upgrade at this time I would say, use the same amp you currently have and buy a used (if possible) Chord Qutest DAC.
The reason being that the Qutest dac will still be TOTL for a few years while you save up to buy a better amp and headphone set. The best front ends (speakers/headphones) will only reveal the upper limits of the source. I suspect that what happened was the LCD-X and LCD-4 showed you the exact limit of your sources capability at this time but the LCD-X is comparatively more forgiving while also being easier to drive.
The qutest should come in at a lower price right now than that used LCD-4 did and you can then spend the surplus on a more powerful amp (think Bryston or GSX). Also, used LCD-4s are generally that same price here on Head-fi pretty frequently so with some patience another one will come up.

My experience has been that upgrading/changing front ends makes the biggest OVERALL difference but upgrading source and later amping raises the minimum qualitative level.

How does the Qutest compare to the Hugo 2 / Hugo tt2.

And what other options do I have except Chord?

I was going to go to my computer to write up something very similar. If you’re not seeing a substantial difference between the X and the 4, then you’re seeing the limitations of your source and amp.

Yes I am now thinking about what equipment I should buy if I end up getting the 4.

I bought my LCD-4 direct from Audeze on their B-Stock sale last year on Black Friday. They ran the same sale this year. $2500 for the 4 with full warranty. It had a tiny blemish by one of the yokes. You would never see it unless pointed out. With a little patience you can find the 4 used for around $2200 or even as low as $2000. All in nice shape.

Same!!! 4 scales well. X hits a wall. Buying a 4 and a decent amp isn't a magic pill to audio nirvana.

I should have said that at the start - I am not from the US so I need to pay 17% tax.

If I buy a used pair of LCD-4 for 2000$ including worldwide shipping I will end up paying 2340$. So I prefer to negotiate a bit on the price and just get this pair since it is 6 months old and was barely used.

 

[kid vic]

That is the issue, From what I know it should drive just fine and give good performance but that wasn't what I was hearing.

The 4 really didn't offer that much over the X.



How does the Qutest compare to the Hugo 2 / Hugo tt2.

And what other options do I have except Chord?



Yes I am now thinking about what equipment I should buy if I end up getting the 4.


I should have said that at the start - I am not from the US so I need to pay 17% tax.

If I buy a used pair of LCD-4 for 2000$ including worldwide shipping I will end up paying 2340$. So I prefer to negotiate a bit on the price and just get this pair since it is 6 months old and was barely used.

So the Qutest, is literally the Hugo 2 dac without the amp section.
Chord is massively over represented on head-fi imo. Its not that they are a bad company or that there products aren't good it's that if you are asking "what else is there other than Chord" you might not know the market well enough to get a system that actually pleases you.

I suspect it might be in your best interest to do some more reading and source upgrading before you even consider the 4. The worst case scenario for you is that you have a subpar source and amp combo that never fully realizes the strengths of the 4.

To answer your question about what else is there save for Chord, there's:
PS Audio, Naim, Matrix Audio, Cambridge Audio, Ayre, Holo audio, Audio GD, Simaudio and much more.

Where exactly are you located? Depending on where you are you could be bound to headphone amps exclusively or you could pursue integrated amps (lots of differing opinions on that subject).
Given what you have posted so far I think your best option is to let that LCD-4 go and use the same budget to upgrade your source and amping; your chain will be more versatile to different headphones (or add speaker functionality) and when you next have the chance to compare your current LCD-X with the LCD-4 you will better here the differences between them.

 

[491838]

lol Chord makes better stuff than Audio GD and PS Audio (both of which are pretty well known for measuring like crap).

 

[kid vic]

lol Chord makes better stuff than Audio GD and PS Audio (both of which are pretty well known for measuring like crap).

That funny thing about measuring.
It entertains me when people say that because it tells me their primary focus is on gear not music. Turntables and tube amps are notorious for their inability to measure well but the people who care about music still buy them in droves. I'm sure you are right that they measure poorly but this hobby frequently comes down to whether or not something sounds good enough for the buyer in question to own. Chord certainly measures well but the signature isn't for everyone; if you would rather have the best measuring devices and forgo the personal satisfaction of the best sound to individual human ears then only consider chord products.

 

[Roybenz]

lol Chord makes better stuff than Audio GD and PS Audio (both of which are pretty well known for measuring like crap).

How do you measure your own pleasure of listening to music? Measuring equipment doesnt mean much in comparison to how the listening to music actually makes you feel. Did that make sense?

 

[491838]

That funny thing about measuring.
It entertains me when people say that because it tells me their primary focus is on gear not music. Turntables and tube amps are notorious for their inability to measure well but the people who care about music still buy them in droves. I'm sure you are right that they measure poorly but this hobby frequently comes down to whether or not something sounds good enough for the buyer in question to own. Chord certainly measures well but the signature isn't for everyone; if you would rather have the best measuring devices and forgo the personal satisfaction of the best sound to individual human ears then only consider chord products.

Audio GD stuff is at least fairly cheap. PS Audio makes some expensive stuff that measures like crap. Where does the money go then?

 

[pippen99]

I have the PS Audio Directstream DAC. It worked well for me several years ago when I first purchased it. Now because of its design that allows for updates to firmware over the net it has become even at its high price what I consider to be a great value. PS Audio's commitment to continuously service and update its procucts (for FREE) make it an outstanding member of the Audio industry. Check out my equipment profile. The DSD is an intergral part of an outstanding sounding headphone system (IMHO).

 

[kid vic]

Audio GD stuff is at least fairly cheap. PS Audio makes some expensive stuff that measures like crap. Where does the money go then?

I really don't think you understand what I'm talking about. As I said at the start, measurements are important to some people, to others functionality and sound signature are more important. You keep bringing up measurements as if it was the end all be all of gear acquisition. I Assume it is for you but for many people the point of this hobby is to enjoy the music. A number of head-fiers love metal music, some of which was poorly recorded; for them a system that aims for total microscopic exposure of the signal is counter productive to their musical enjoyment. I'm not going to break down where PS audio spends the dollars the earn because frankly, I neither know nor care; but I can tell you it sounds good to my ears and clearly enough others to keep the company in business.

Value is a subjective measurement as well; some people don't see the value of an LCD4 over an HD600.

To be clear your using essentially the argument against 80% of hifi products and (imo) all audiophile cables to "expose" PS audio.